1
00:00:04,584 --> 00:00:06,604
[music]

2
00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:22,720
Hey, Steve. Uh, welcome to Pale Blue

3
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:25,119
Nexus. Uh, you're a PhD.

4
00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:26,880
Um, graduated from one of the top

5
00:00:25,119 --> 00:00:29,039
schools.

6
00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:32,079
Tell me a little bit about your project,

7
00:00:29,039 --> 00:00:33,280
Think, and uh welcome to the show.

8
00:00:32,079 --> 00:00:36,559
>> All right. Well, it's great to be with

9
00:00:33,280 --> 00:00:38,399
you, Johan. Uh real a fan of anything

10
00:00:36,559 --> 00:00:40,320
that's entrepreneurial and especially

11
00:00:38,399 --> 00:00:42,320
innovators like you, bringing the

12
00:00:40,320 --> 00:00:45,040
messages to the world that matter most

13
00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,960
for the future generations. Uh I wake up

14
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:49,600
every morning trying to inspire somebody

15
00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:51,360
younger uh to build something new that's

16
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,399
going to make people stand up and feel

17
00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:56,160
that life is better. Uh so yeah my my

18
00:00:54,399 --> 00:00:58,239
background is very eclectic. I was an

19
00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:01,120
academic scientist

20
00:00:58,239 --> 00:01:03,760
uh ended that part of my career about 23

21
00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:05,840
years ago uh as a professor at Harvard

22
00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:07,920
Med. I left because I wasn't making a

23
00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:10,159
big enough difference in the lives of

24
00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:12,799
everyday people. I ran a couple of

25
00:01:10,159 --> 00:01:14,960
companies, ran a venture capital fund

26
00:01:12,799 --> 00:01:17,520
and ran a public company. Got to ring

27
00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:20,560
the NASDAQ bell. And so I've seen every

28
00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:23,040
side imaginable. Uh from the beautiful,

29
00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:25,200
the fantastic, the glorious down to the

30
00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,880
the bad and the ugly, unders sides,

31
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,080
underbellies of bankruptcies and

32
00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:31,439
everything else. I've probably been

33
00:01:28,080 --> 00:01:34,560
around 60 companies at some level

34
00:01:31,439 --> 00:01:37,119
firsthand uh in my journey going back to

35
00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:39,200
my academic days. And so uh

36
00:01:37,119 --> 00:01:41,520
fundamentally I care about working with

37
00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:43,680
great people and building good teams and

38
00:01:41,520 --> 00:01:45,200
doing something that's wonderful for the

39
00:01:43,680 --> 00:01:47,920
world.

40
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:50,240
Yeah, I connected with you on our pre-in

41
00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:53,280
call um because you're developing this

42
00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:56,320
really cool product that uh you know my

43
00:01:53,280 --> 00:02:00,079
kids can use like they it's a it's a

44
00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:04,000
hardware device um it sits on your head

45
00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:06,079
and given your background you know like

46
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,680
you're kind of well positioned to to

47
00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:10,080
develop this product. Tell me a little

48
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:11,599
bit about it and and what do you expect

49
00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:14,319
to achieve with it?

50
00:02:11,599 --> 00:02:17,520
>> Right. So the the uh the company's name

51
00:02:14,319 --> 00:02:19,599
is Think T H Y N K. Uh I was actually

52
00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:22,400
retired and I came out of retirement

53
00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:25,599
because I'd seen this technology. It was

54
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:27,760
languishing a bit and so I I took hold

55
00:02:25,599 --> 00:02:30,239
of it and brought it forward into the

56
00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:32,319
markets, refined the the the technology

57
00:02:30,239 --> 00:02:35,280
a bit. And what it is is it's a little

58
00:02:32,319 --> 00:02:38,480
headset that you wear. By you I mean

59
00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:40,959
anybody between the age of five and 95.

60
00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:45,120
Anybody from any walk of life or any

61
00:02:40,959 --> 00:02:48,080
nationality. And using this headset uh

62
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:51,680
you actually it passively monitors your

63
00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:54,239
brain waves in related to very very

64
00:02:51,680 --> 00:02:56,480
specific functions which again the field

65
00:02:54,239 --> 00:02:59,519
neuroscience has been working on this

66
00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:01,360
for decades. And then your brain waves

67
00:02:59,519 --> 00:03:04,080
are then used to control a video game on

68
00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:06,879
an iPad. It's an adventure game like

69
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,879
Temple Doom or you know Subway Surf or

70
00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:12,959
things that kids can play or adults can

71
00:03:08,879 --> 00:03:15,440
play. Uh but it's not an addictive game.

72
00:03:12,959 --> 00:03:18,239
It's a game that's taught it's to teach

73
00:03:15,440 --> 00:03:20,239
you cognitive skills. Although some kids

74
00:03:18,239 --> 00:03:22,879
in particular get addicted in the sense

75
00:03:20,239 --> 00:03:24,480
that they enjoy winning uh against

76
00:03:22,879 --> 00:03:27,120
themselves, seeing how much they can

77
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,800
achieve on their own. there there is uh

78
00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,239
no ultimate goal in that other than

79
00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:36,879
improving your tech brain skills and uh

80
00:03:32,239 --> 00:03:38,400
we're now serving everyday people. We

81
00:03:36,879 --> 00:03:41,680
don't go direct to consumer because

82
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:44,560
we're a very small team right now. Uh so

83
00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:47,360
we're we started in the first market is

84
00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:50,480
uh public schools mostly in the south

85
00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:53,280
and we'll be moving into sports. And the

86
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:55,440
best way to think about what we teach is

87
00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:58,159
we all wish we could get into a flow

88
00:03:55,440 --> 00:04:01,760
state every time we're writing uh a

89
00:03:58,159 --> 00:04:03,599
document or driving the car or in a very

90
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:06,159
challenging moment uh

91
00:04:03,599 --> 00:04:07,920
>> stressful taking an exam.

92
00:04:06,159 --> 00:04:09,680
>> But somehow we get locked into these

93
00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,959
little pathways that you know you're

94
00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:13,120
worried about dinner, you're worried

95
00:04:10,959 --> 00:04:15,840
about uh your date tonight or something

96
00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:17,359
else and you're distracted. So, we get

97
00:04:15,840 --> 00:04:20,079
you into that flow state of being

98
00:04:17,359 --> 00:04:22,400
non-distracted while being in a high

99
00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:25,520
pressure situation of having to be part

100
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:27,759
of a video game. So, imagine it's it's

101
00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:31,440
not like sitting in a cave and

102
00:04:27,759 --> 00:04:33,759
meditating. It's like being at work on a

103
00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:35,840
timeline to deliver something to your

104
00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:39,040
boss. How do I get into this flow state

105
00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:41,759
under pressure? That's what we teach.

106
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:43,520
>> Get into a flow state under pressure. I

107
00:04:41,759 --> 00:04:47,600
mean, it it's already hard enough to get

108
00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:50,639
into a flow state. Um, and now you're

109
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:52,639
you're almost saying that you can

110
00:04:50,639 --> 00:04:54,320
bring it on at will, which is like a

111
00:04:52,639 --> 00:04:57,360
superpower these days, especially with

112
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:58,960
so many distractions out there. It is a

113
00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,600
superpower.

114
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:04,000
Uh, I had a personal beginning in this

115
00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:05,520
field about 10 years ago. I was doing uh

116
00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,280
some

117
00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,759
uh mindfulness training with the John

118
00:05:07,280 --> 00:05:12,320
Kitt Zen Institute in Massachusetts and

119
00:05:09,759 --> 00:05:14,720
I was failing miserably. I couldn't get

120
00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,720
away from my own thoughts. And so I

121
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:20,320
actually had the pleasure of meeting Dr.

122
00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:22,800
Jud Brewer who uh brought me into his

123
00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:25,360
lab with tens of thousands of dollars of

124
00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:28,080
EEG and other equipment. And I learned

125
00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:30,080
with bio feedback to actually meditate

126
00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,360
at a level I know most humans have never

127
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:34,320
felt. Mhm.

128
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:36,560
>> But it was the value of the device that

129
00:05:34,320 --> 00:05:38,160
I could actually teach myself, but was

130
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,639
because it was giving me an independent

131
00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:42,560
measure. Imagine trying to lose weight

132
00:05:40,639 --> 00:05:44,960
without having a scale to stand on. Oh,

133
00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,800
I feel a lot skinnier today. [laughter]

134
00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,639
You really don't know what you're doing

135
00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:50,720
in a flow state. But we all know, we've

136
00:05:48,639 --> 00:05:53,440
all been in that state, getting a lot of

137
00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:55,280
work done or playing music or somewhere

138
00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,320
in a sport, you don't even remember

139
00:05:55,280 --> 00:06:01,280
making the shot, but it went in somehow.

140
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:05,280
>> That's trainable. That's something we've

141
00:06:01,280 --> 00:06:07,840
lost as a modern species because of our

142
00:06:05,280 --> 00:06:11,360
distracted lives.

143
00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:14,960
>> Why doesn't uh a current

144
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:17,280
publisher like Nintendo or somebody

145
00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:18,800
that's really good at hardware develop a

146
00:06:17,280 --> 00:06:20,639
device like this? Is it just that

147
00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,240
they're align their incentives don't

148
00:06:20,639 --> 00:06:26,319
align here?

149
00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:27,600
>> Uh it's there's a few reasons. Um, one

150
00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:29,199
there there's never been a product

151
00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:32,800
that's worked in this space until we

152
00:06:29,199 --> 00:06:34,400
came along. Uh, literally billions have

153
00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,240
been thrown, for example, working in

154
00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,160
schools primarily right now. Billions

155
00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:41,120
have been thrown with into technology to

156
00:06:38,160 --> 00:06:43,360
help students do better in school.

157
00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:45,199
How has it worked out? Well, we've given

158
00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,720
them standardized tests and they're not

159
00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:48,560
doing any better. We can now blame

160
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:51,039
COVID, but they're still not doing any

161
00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,440
better no matter what we throw. When we

162
00:06:51,039 --> 00:06:55,919
do this, kids behavior calms down when

163
00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:57,680
we our self-regulatory pathways in our

164
00:06:55,919 --> 00:07:00,400
brain that we help develop over the

165
00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:02,400
course of just six weeks and their math

166
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:04,720
and reading scores on standardized tests

167
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,520
go up one grade level playing just an

168
00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,360
hour a week. And big companies care

169
00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:11,840
about

170
00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:14,160
selling to everybody.

171
00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:16,080
And in the gaming world, it's very easy

172
00:07:14,160 --> 00:07:17,680
to sell something that's a dopamine

173
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:20,240
rush.

174
00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:22,720
>> You challenge in a in a co in that kind

175
00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,440
of cognitive sense. Our game challenges

176
00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:29,120
you every instant at your own personal

177
00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:30,800
level. It's dynamically adjusting to how

178
00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:33,599
good you are.

179
00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,280
>> And so as a result, it's like going to

180
00:07:33,599 --> 00:07:38,400
the gym. Does it feel good to lift

181
00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:41,199
weights every single day? And most

182
00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:42,720
people quit after a month. And so

183
00:07:41,199 --> 00:07:45,919
something is good for you takes some

184
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:47,599
dedication. And that's what uh the big v

185
00:07:45,919 --> 00:07:49,199
the big companies know that if you're

186
00:07:47,599 --> 00:07:51,520
counting on people to buy something

187
00:07:49,199 --> 00:07:53,919
that's good for them and to get a

188
00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:56,319
subscription that's year after year it's

189
00:07:53,919 --> 00:07:58,479
not going to work. [laughter]

190
00:07:56,319 --> 00:08:01,520
But there is an in between stage. It is

191
00:07:58,479 --> 00:08:04,720
possible to think of video games

192
00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:07,280
controlled by a headset like ours where

193
00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:09,280
there's actually different routes to

194
00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:12,080
take. Okay, I mean this is in the future

195
00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:13,840
where some are the training comp steps

196
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,840
and the others are just the pure fun

197
00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:17,919
steps. So you can begin to integrate

198
00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:19,919
across platforms.

199
00:08:17,919 --> 00:08:24,479
>> So it's a scientific problem and it's

200
00:08:19,919 --> 00:08:26,479
also a understanding your market uh

201
00:08:24,479 --> 00:08:27,919
problem behavior. How do you get people

202
00:08:26,479 --> 00:08:29,440
to change behaviors?

203
00:08:27,919 --> 00:08:31,680
>> They're happy with the results. And

204
00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:33,760
that's why we like to do work in groups

205
00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,919
because everybody shows up for their

206
00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:38,479
their group uh tutoring class or they

207
00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:40,240
show up for their senior citizen weekly

208
00:08:38,479 --> 00:08:42,000
reading class or you know book reading

209
00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,440
or whatever. If you show up for this

210
00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,320
class, you're going to do it the end of

211
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:50,000
six weeks. You got the benefit.

212
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:53,200
So, the game's called Skyler's Run, and

213
00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:57,920
um it monitors

214
00:08:53,200 --> 00:08:59,360
uh the users's attention state every 100

215
00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,160
milliseconds right?

216
00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,880
>> Correct.

217
00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:05,040
>> Um what's kind of like the most

218
00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:07,600
uncomfortable thing you've learned

219
00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:10,000
regarding the human and how the human

220
00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:12,320
behavior is while like I guess looking

221
00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:15,120
at the data at scale? Uh

222
00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:17,440
>> well there's a few things I've been in

223
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:21,040
uh the field of data generation in

224
00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:24,480
health and wellness for my whole career

225
00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:26,160
uh where you know fundamentally uh we've

226
00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,760
actually gotten with wearables in

227
00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,720
particular to a point where we can

228
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:33,120
measure lots and lots of things but

229
00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:34,880
there's very few things that when you're

230
00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:38,000
measuring it that actually teaches you

231
00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:40,240
how to improve it. uh you know if you

232
00:09:38,000 --> 00:09:42,080
wear a heart monitor and says you're

233
00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,680
stressed it does that monitor doesn't

234
00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,360
give you a training program how to

235
00:09:43,680 --> 00:09:47,680
reduce your stress or your heart rate

236
00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:50,080
variability or anything else that's a

237
00:09:47,680 --> 00:09:53,360
difference we're seeing here so it's it

238
00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:56,160
becomes an approach that people have to

239
00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,640
understand it's no different

240
00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:02,160
than going to the gym

241
00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:05,040
>> for your brain 60 years ago who went to

242
00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:07,839
the gym to exercise I guarantee your

243
00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:08,959
great grandmother didn't Oh, if you

244
00:10:07,839 --> 00:10:11,279
asked her, she would have said, "What

245
00:10:08,959 --> 00:10:14,560
are you talking about?" Now, we've given

246
00:10:11,279 --> 00:10:16,720
over our physical uh challenges to

247
00:10:14,560 --> 00:10:18,000
machines and automation and cars and

248
00:10:16,720 --> 00:10:20,160
everything else. We're doing the same

249
00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:24,160
thing with our brain. So, the idea of a

250
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:26,560
cognitive suite of tools for any age for

251
00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,640
a wide range of skills. We teach 13

252
00:10:26,560 --> 00:10:31,200
skills right now. We're envisioning a

253
00:10:28,640 --> 00:10:33,440
map to a 100 skills that is

254
00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:36,079
individualized and it can be in any sort

255
00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:38,160
of game game setting. So the fundamental

256
00:10:36,079 --> 00:10:40,640
difference here is the training aspect

257
00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:43,279
that transfers into the real world. So

258
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,959
if you're better at this game, you're

259
00:10:43,279 --> 00:10:47,680
better at math and reading. You're

260
00:10:44,959 --> 00:10:48,959
better at surgery as opposed to if

261
00:10:47,680 --> 00:10:50,800
you're better at this game, you can

262
00:10:48,959 --> 00:10:53,042
drive Mario Karts anytime you want and

263
00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,760
that's all you can do. [snorts]

264
00:10:53,042 --> 00:10:56,399
[laughter]

265
00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:59,279
That's the big difference. All right. I

266
00:10:56,399 --> 00:11:02,880
I I see my son on Mario Kart and and all

267
00:10:59,279 --> 00:11:05,279
of these games and uh yeah, I'm I'm How

268
00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:07,920
much is it, man? I want to buy one.

269
00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:09,200
>> So, uh, right right now we're in schools

270
00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:10,800
where because kids can share the

271
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,600
headsets, we give out the headsets.

272
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,519
They're inexpensive, built by team of

273
00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:17,519
brilliant engineers that have EEG

274
00:11:15,519 --> 00:11:18,959
machines in every major hospital on the

275
00:11:17,519 --> 00:11:20,480
planet. But they're very proud of this

276
00:11:18,959 --> 00:11:22,480
simple device because the signal and

277
00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,880
noise is as good as anything they've

278
00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:26,800
ever produced before. And the EEG

279
00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:28,560
experts, the clinicians and the the

280
00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,000
psychologists have built something

281
00:11:28,560 --> 00:11:33,200
great. And then we also have a team of

282
00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,120
psychologists who are data analytical

283
00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:38,640
people who've gotten their PhDs in

284
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:41,839
gaming technologies and how games can

285
00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:43,680
actually map to very specific cognitive

286
00:11:41,839 --> 00:11:45,360
skills in the brain.

287
00:11:43,680 --> 00:11:47,200
>> And so when you put that combination

288
00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:49,279
together, you end up with something

289
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,120
that's very compelling. It's the first

290
00:11:49,279 --> 00:11:53,120
of what's going to be hundreds of things

291
00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:56,000
in the space just like apps on the

292
00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:58,480
iPhone. So where we are right now is

293
00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,440
we're selling it only to schools because

294
00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:02,959
we don't have a big team to manage the

295
00:12:01,440 --> 00:12:04,320
inbound calls from you know a

296
00:12:02,959 --> 00:12:06,240
grandmother who doesn't know how to use

297
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,360
an iPad or something because we see

298
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:09,120
these

299
00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,680
>> we will go direct to consumers in about

300
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:15,519
a year. Uh you can write us you can look

301
00:12:11,680 --> 00:12:17,680
for us on think uh it's just about

302
00:12:15,519 --> 00:12:19,600
making sure we can give everybody a

303
00:12:17,680 --> 00:12:22,480
seamless experience. It shows up in the

304
00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:24,480
mail, you put it on and you go. And for

305
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,760
right now, it's uh as I tell people, if

306
00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:27,279
you know Steve, you might be able to get

307
00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:31,279
one. Depends if you're an inves

308
00:12:27,279 --> 00:12:33,839
potential investor. But uh uh we have a

309
00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,839
lot of people asking, but we're also in

310
00:12:33,839 --> 00:12:39,600
the schools. We're in Florida, Puerto

311
00:12:35,839 --> 00:12:41,519
Rico, Ohio, Tennessee. We're and we're

312
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,000
in some of the largest school districts

313
00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:45,680
in the entire United States states. So

314
00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:48,560
rather than selling one person at a

315
00:12:45,680 --> 00:12:50,320
time, we can sell one district and they

316
00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:53,680
Puerto Rico for example, we're doing a

317
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,600
pilot there has 250,000 students in one

318
00:12:53,680 --> 00:12:57,760
school system.

319
00:12:55,600 --> 00:13:00,240
>> Wow. Yeah. And even uh through

320
00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:03,040
initiatives like uh podcasts, you can

321
00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:06,880
reach more people. So um tell me about

322
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:10,480
like cognitive skills and which ones

323
00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:13,200
stand out to you as ones that help

324
00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:15,200
adults the most in today's world. So the

325
00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:18,160
one one we're dealing with is actually

326
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,920
fundamentally a uh there's there's

327
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:24,000
different levels if you look at it as

328
00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:27,680
sort of pyramid blocks where you build

329
00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:29,680
up to the premium executive uh skills,

330
00:13:27,680 --> 00:13:31,200
executive function skills of deep

331
00:13:29,680 --> 00:13:32,959
reasoning, you know, being able to put

332
00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,760
mathematical concepts together,

333
00:13:32,959 --> 00:13:37,600
understanding uh quantum theory. Those

334
00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,440
are very high reasoning skills. And it

335
00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:41,519
could even be giving speeches in public

336
00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:44,160
and things like that where all the

337
00:13:41,519 --> 00:13:47,760
skills below it where there's language

338
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:49,920
or you know uh connecting the dots have

339
00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:52,480
to come into play to build to the top

340
00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:55,680
skill. Well, what we've bypassed with a

341
00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:58,720
lot of our technologies recently or

342
00:13:55,680 --> 00:14:00,560
actually unlearn is when you start doing

343
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:06,480
multitasking,

344
00:14:00,560 --> 00:14:09,760
you lose the framework required to be uh

345
00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:11,199
in sort of an automated mode and to be

346
00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,760
self-regulated where you're not

347
00:14:11,199 --> 00:14:15,360
interrupting people every 3 minutes,

348
00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:17,839
you're not looking at your phone every

349
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:20,880
two minutes. Those are now reflexes that

350
00:14:17,839 --> 00:14:23,360
are built into our body.

351
00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:27,120
you everybody opens their phone at least

352
00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:28,560
150 times a day and 50% of the time it's

353
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,480
not because it's ringing or you

354
00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:32,720
expecting it's just you it's like a

355
00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,720
nervous tw tick I have to do that

356
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:37,199
>> but when you lose that when you pick up

357
00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,399
that ability it's great for the AI world

358
00:14:37,199 --> 00:14:40,720
because you're going to have so many

359
00:14:38,399 --> 00:14:43,040
things streaming at you but you still

360
00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:45,760
need to sit down and take that damn test

361
00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:48,560
again where it no matter what it is or

362
00:14:45,760 --> 00:14:50,800
drive the car under in a snowstorm you

363
00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,320
have to be able to get into a state

364
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:56,240
where you're just excluding everything

365
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:58,079
that's out there. And so I view it as

366
00:14:56,240 --> 00:15:02,000
we speak English, but we've learned to

367
00:14:58,079 --> 00:15:05,839
speak French with this AI brain now, but

368
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:07,760
we still need English once in a while.

369
00:15:05,839 --> 00:15:09,360
And coming back to one of your original

370
00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,519
questions,

371
00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:14,000
people who play it regularly, and we had

372
00:15:11,519 --> 00:15:16,320
a lot of summer intern engineers playing

373
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:17,920
a lot who one was a competitive video

374
00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:20,639
gamer, he noticed the scores were going

375
00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,720
up. People who play a lot say, "I know

376
00:15:20,639 --> 00:15:25,760
the difference. I know when I'm in the

377
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,839
flow state, I can feel it." We believe

378
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:32,480
it's possible to push yourself into it,

379
00:15:27,839 --> 00:15:34,399
but we haven't gotten there yet. Okay.

380
00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:39,199
But it's great

381
00:15:34,399 --> 00:15:42,320
>> and I guess it it can help when it uh

382
00:15:39,199 --> 00:15:46,079
with conditions like ADHD and things

383
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:48,800
like that. Uh or keep somebody focused.

384
00:15:46,079 --> 00:15:50,480
>> Absolutely. Um focus and attention to

385
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,079
the top ones with working memory is

386
00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,560
another example. If you can't remember a

387
00:15:52,079 --> 00:15:56,800
phone number, uh that's a problem. And

388
00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,560
so imagine how many phone numbers we

389
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,920
used to learn as kids. We had them all

390
00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,000
in our brain. Mhm.

391
00:15:59,920 --> 00:16:03,680
>> Now, you ask any of my grandkids, they

392
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,279
couldn't remember anybody's phone

393
00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,920
number. It's not a skill that we have

394
00:16:05,279 --> 00:16:11,199
anymore. There's part of the the working

395
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:13,040
uh memory. So, the uh I forgot what you

396
00:16:11,199 --> 00:16:16,000
asked. I apologize. The

397
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,680
>> even even multiplication tables like we

398
00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:20,720
used to know all our multiplication

399
00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:23,600
tables. We we used to have to to to say

400
00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:26,240
them uh all of them in front of the

401
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,320
class or you know on on demand. And I

402
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:31,759
ask my daughter that these days and no

403
00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:33,600
clue. It's like that whole era of just

404
00:16:31,759 --> 00:16:34,800
memorizing, working memory is just not

405
00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,040
there anymore.

406
00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,959
>> And another great analogy, especially

407
00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,920
for kids, is you you say, "Here's what

408
00:16:38,959 --> 00:16:41,519
we're going to teach." And I tell them,

409
00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:43,360
"Are you what sport do you play? You're

410
00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:45,040
going to be better at soccer because you

411
00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:46,880
can do you can focus on the penalty

412
00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,560
kicks or something." Just have them

413
00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:50,160
write with their natural hand. So their

414
00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:54,000
right hand, write their name in a

415
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:56,639
sentence. Now do it with your left hand.

416
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:59,920
Your left hand is physically capable of

417
00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:02,320
doing it, but your brain pathway hasn't

418
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:03,920
learned to do it yet.

419
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:06,640
>> And over the course of three or four

420
00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:08,959
weeks, you can train it. And that's

421
00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,679
exactly what we're talking about here.

422
00:17:08,959 --> 00:17:13,120
So in in the case of ADHD,

423
00:17:11,679 --> 00:17:16,000
there were actually eight clinical

424
00:17:13,120 --> 00:17:18,480
trials run with this technology before I

425
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,319
acquired it, showing it works as well as

426
00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:22,240
any med

427
00:17:20,319 --> 00:17:24,160
in the metrics you measure when you're

428
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:26,959
measuring ADHD.

429
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:30,400
Now, just like obesity or hypertension,

430
00:17:26,959 --> 00:17:33,679
there is no cut off line that says you

431
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:36,160
have ADHD or you don't. We all have a

432
00:17:33,679 --> 00:17:37,840
elements of it. So that's why it's

433
00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,600
useful for everyone. That's why we

434
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,480
haven't we don't need a clinical

435
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:46,160
designation of any kind. But I will say

436
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:49,280
of the 19 most commonly

437
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:51,120
uh diagnosed mental health conditions

438
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:55,200
including depression and bulimia and

439
00:17:51,120 --> 00:17:58,160
things like that in all but two uh

440
00:17:55,200 --> 00:18:01,360
attention issues rank as one of the

441
00:17:58,160 --> 00:18:03,280
biggest symptoms they have.

442
00:18:01,360 --> 00:18:07,919
And it's not it's even worse in some

443
00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:08,960
than it is in ADHD itself. H

444
00:18:07,919 --> 00:18:11,039
That's amazing.

445
00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:13,840
>> Underlies everything.

446
00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:17,039
>> I mean, there's there's one thing and

447
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:19,840
one word that uh I think is important

448
00:18:17,039 --> 00:18:23,679
these days and it's focus. We just have

449
00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:26,160
so much noise everywhere. It's the the I

450
00:18:23,679 --> 00:18:29,840
am constantly as as a CEO myself, I'm

451
00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:31,760
constantly looking at my to-do list and

452
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:33,919
having to say, what is it that I'm

453
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:37,679
taking out of this? Like what can I

454
00:18:33,919 --> 00:18:40,000
remove? And I think it's like uh there's

455
00:18:37,679 --> 00:18:43,600
just so many things that that that you

456
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:45,120
can focus on, but you just have to be

457
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,679
choosy about that.

458
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:49,600
>> You know, we've done a pilot study that

459
00:18:47,679 --> 00:18:53,120
was quite successful with a company

460
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:55,600
called Mentabi Health, MABI, that does

461
00:18:53,120 --> 00:18:58,880
telemental health. They provide adults

462
00:18:55,600 --> 00:19:01,200
with counseling and med medications and

463
00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,039
you know a therapist.

464
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:06,799
And so the people who came into that

465
00:19:03,039 --> 00:19:10,320
were between early 20s and mid-40s. Uh

466
00:19:06,799 --> 00:19:12,240
and we sent them a headset at home. They

467
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:15,440
had they had a trainer who was part of

468
00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:16,799
Mntavi. Uh and only about half the

469
00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,400
people finished the program because

470
00:19:16,799 --> 00:19:20,799
we're all busy. And now we're talking

471
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:23,360
about people who have you know anxieties

472
00:19:20,799 --> 00:19:26,240
or whatever. Every single person who

473
00:19:23,360 --> 00:19:28,320
completed the program

474
00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,799
raved about how it was life-changing on

475
00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:32,400
top of what they were already doing. The

476
00:19:30,799 --> 00:19:34,400
number one thing they said, which

477
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:37,048
relates to what you just said, is I now

478
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,799
get my work done by the end of the day.

479
00:19:37,048 --> 00:19:40,720
[snorts]

480
00:19:38,799 --> 00:19:42,400
>> That's why they go home. And the other

481
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,840
thing that the other comment I love was

482
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:47,919
I no longer interrupt my co-workers.

483
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,679
>> Interesting.

484
00:19:47,919 --> 00:19:52,480
>> Impatience. Yeah.

485
00:19:49,679 --> 00:19:55,200
>> Yep. Impatience. Um, talk to me about

486
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:59,840
like your journey

487
00:19:55,200 --> 00:20:03,440
from being a 18-year career at Harvard

488
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:06,640
Medical to becoming a CEO. I I I think

489
00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:08,480
like not many people understand how

490
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:11,120
difficult that could be, you know, being

491
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:13,679
in such a academic sort of mindset now

492
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:15,760
to becoming a CEO and a man a people

493
00:20:13,679 --> 00:20:17,200
manager and all the other business owner

494
00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,559
and all those different things.

495
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,919
>> Yeah. Although I'm not that good at the

496
00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:24,799
finances, but I was [laughter]

497
00:20:21,919 --> 00:20:28,799
I skipped that class. Um, but I can read

498
00:20:24,799 --> 00:20:31,039
a cap table and a piano. The uh the

499
00:20:28,799 --> 00:20:32,960
journey was totally unexpected. You

500
00:20:31,039 --> 00:20:35,679
know, I was a basic scientist studying

501
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:38,480
very basic research problems. Uh, and in

502
00:20:35,679 --> 00:20:41,039
the mid 90s, my father got Parkinson's

503
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:44,400
and my cousin got ALS. I wasn't working

504
00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:48,000
in neuroscience at the time, but I

505
00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:49,520
switched over. said and I was impatient

506
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,240
because I wanted something that would

507
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:54,080
help them in particular. So I formed

508
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:56,080
alliances with some of the nonprofit

509
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:58,000
groups to say let's try to do something

510
00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:59,919
different. Let's not go figure out the

511
00:20:58,000 --> 00:21:01,440
basic science suddenly. Let's see if we

512
00:20:59,919 --> 00:21:04,320
can find some diagnostics or

513
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:07,440
therapeutics in their nearer term turn

514
00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:11,039
out to be unfundable by the NIH.

515
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:13,440
Uh I examples are I made the first

516
00:21:11,039 --> 00:21:15,840
library ever of all existing drugs in

517
00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,760
the pharmacy by asking bought and last

518
00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:20,240
and Latin high school kids to come into

519
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,240
my lab across the street and grind up

520
00:21:20,240 --> 00:21:24,159
pills

521
00:21:22,240 --> 00:21:26,559
not fundable by the NIH because what's

522
00:21:24,159 --> 00:21:29,039
your hypothesis that it might work in

523
00:21:26,559 --> 00:21:31,520
some disease you know we could do these

524
00:21:29,039 --> 00:21:34,400
in petri dishes or animals uh I

525
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:36,000
sequenced the first cancer uh tumor with

526
00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,240
a team we put together got the

527
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,240
informatics done in Malaysia. This is a

528
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,919
little over 20 years ago because there

529
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,919
was no AI platform that was strong

530
00:21:41,919 --> 00:21:47,600
enough here at that time. And uh again,

531
00:21:45,919 --> 00:21:49,520
what what's your hypothesis when you

532
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:51,120
sequence it to well now we have this

533
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:53,280
field called translational medicine

534
00:21:51,120 --> 00:21:55,360
where everything's come forward. It was

535
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:58,159
out of my frustration of trying to get

536
00:21:55,360 --> 00:22:00,000
being a good hum human humanitarian by

537
00:21:58,159 --> 00:22:01,200
offering up these technologies because I

538
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:03,679
was getting access to them high

539
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:06,960
throughput screening all these things to

540
00:22:03,679 --> 00:22:08,640
the academic groups and finding nothing

541
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:10,159
they were interested but nobody wanted

542
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,919
to give me money to do it actually

543
00:22:10,159 --> 00:22:14,000
Michael J. Fox wrote me one of his first

544
00:22:11,919 --> 00:22:16,880
grants to look for biomarkers

545
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:19,679
>> in the blood for Parkinson's. It's now

546
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:22,400
coming to fruition 25 years later, but

547
00:22:19,679 --> 00:22:24,080
it was literally no neurologist believed

548
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,240
there was a signature in your blood for

549
00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,600
something that goes on in your brain.

550
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,280
Now they're getting approved for

551
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,080
Alzheimer's at this moment.

552
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,480
>> Wow.

553
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:36,480
>> And so my funding was all coming from

554
00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:39,600
Hollywood and Wall Street fundraisers.

555
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:41,520
And eventually I just said I just got to

556
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,440
push out. I got I was I was working with

557
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:45,600
a lot of VCs just helping them look at

558
00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,080
technologies. And that's really how I

559
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:50,880
got involved in the

560
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:53,280
um the business world is I worked with

561
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:56,720
small companies and I worked with VCs

562
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:58,720
and I gave away free time when I when I

563
00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,640
to be sure I could be in I I was get

564
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,720
paid for a lot of the consulting but I

565
00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,360
would give away free time to stay in the

566
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,520
business conversations what is this

567
00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:10,080
technology works perfectly why is it not

568
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:13,039
getting funded and that's when I learned

569
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,880
you know the market fit the timing you

570
00:23:13,039 --> 00:23:17,120
know the money the team All of these

571
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:19,280
things became critically

572
00:23:17,120 --> 00:23:21,360
important. I built a couple of teams

573
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,880
myself and then I put a venture capital

574
00:23:21,360 --> 00:23:26,000
fund together with my very close friend

575
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:28,720
Juan Enriquez. Um, which was great. We

576
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:32,880
had over 200 million and we invested it

577
00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:35,679
over 10 10 years or 12 years I guess.

578
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:37,440
Uh, I enjoyed that a lot but at the same

579
00:23:35,679 --> 00:23:39,600
time I have more of an operating

580
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:41,919
personality.

581
00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:44,240
um you going you know to a board meeting

582
00:23:41,919 --> 00:23:47,039
quarterly and just hearing an update is

583
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:49,360
not as enjoyable as being part of a team

584
00:23:47,039 --> 00:23:51,440
and building it and that's uh

585
00:23:49,360 --> 00:23:53,679
>> I was going to ask you why don't you

586
00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,000
just advise instead of uh operating or

587
00:23:53,679 --> 00:23:56,880
building but uh it is nothing like

588
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,600
building right so

589
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:02,559
>> no it's about the team yeah and and and

590
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:04,240
now so then I I ran a public company

591
00:24:02,559 --> 00:24:08,159
because one of my portfolio companies

592
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:10,400
needed a new CEO and uh there was uh it

593
00:24:08,159 --> 00:24:12,159
was just a way for me to move outside

594
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,600
the fund. And the fund was going great,

595
00:24:12,159 --> 00:24:15,679
but I didn't want to sign another

596
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:19,039
contract for 10 years because that's

597
00:24:15,679 --> 00:24:20,480
really what you'd have to do. And uh so

598
00:24:19,039 --> 00:24:23,200
I said, well, let me try this public

599
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:26,159
gig, which we had an FDA event that hurt

600
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:29,039
us significantly. But then I retired and

601
00:24:26,159 --> 00:24:30,880
I came out of retirement when uh after

602
00:24:29,039 --> 00:24:32,159
seeing my grandkids who were living with

603
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:35,200
us because they had no daycare in

604
00:24:32,159 --> 00:24:38,080
California. Um one of them struggling to

605
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:40,400
learn how to read through a iPad screen.

606
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:42,080
Yeah, the teacher was wonderful.

607
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,039
Practically standing at her head to keep

608
00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:47,279
him entertained, but the human mind

609
00:24:45,039 --> 00:24:50,320
needs some help.

610
00:24:47,279 --> 00:24:52,240
>> I love that. It's like I'm not done yet,

611
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,400
you know? I've got a I've got a I'm I'm

612
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,559
well positioned to to deliver this and

613
00:24:54,400 --> 00:25:00,080
you are. So, it's it's amazing and I

614
00:24:56,559 --> 00:25:02,000
think I hope um it comes to market to to

615
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,320
the point where people can uh benefit

616
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:06,159
from it. Uh, I I think it's a great

617
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:09,039
>> idea for a product

618
00:25:06,159 --> 00:25:11,360
>> and we'd like to get to market quickly.

619
00:25:09,039 --> 00:25:13,520
The biggest struggle right now is we're

620
00:25:11,360 --> 00:25:15,840
finding since nothing like this has ever

621
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:17,520
existed that worked, we're having to

622
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,279
prove it one case at a time. So, for

623
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:23,360
example, we're going into elite

624
00:25:19,279 --> 00:25:26,000
sportsmies now to chat because there's

625
00:25:23,360 --> 00:25:28,159
these kids pay 50 grand a year to go to

626
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,279
these sportsmies. to try to get D1

627
00:25:28,159 --> 00:25:30,559
scholarships

628
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:34,000
>> where they're now getting paid a million

629
00:25:30,559 --> 00:25:35,760
dollars to play basketball

630
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,840
and they're missing it brain cognitive

631
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,279
training when the big, you know, when

632
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:42,080
you're at the free throw line in the

633
00:25:39,279 --> 00:25:44,559
finals, you got to make that shot.

634
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,960
>> This I I attended a a performance

635
00:25:44,559 --> 00:25:48,720
workshop at IMG Academy down in Florida

636
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,960
there. And uh

637
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:53,919
>> yeah, they talk a lot about this type of

638
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,640
stuff. you you might uh you might run

639
00:25:53,919 --> 00:25:57,919
some tests over there if you if you

640
00:25:56,640 --> 00:26:00,559
connect with them

641
00:25:57,919 --> 00:26:02,799
>> which is and we have entre we're talking

642
00:26:00,559 --> 00:26:06,159
with a former NHL goalie right now and

643
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:09,360
some others in New England. Uh it's

644
00:26:06,159 --> 00:26:11,600
really about finding the right coach or

645
00:26:09,360 --> 00:26:13,200
guide to help someone through it. We

646
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,679
can't just give it to someone and expect

647
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:18,799
them to succeed because we don't have

648
00:26:15,679 --> 00:26:20,799
the proof of what it improves in sports.

649
00:26:18,799 --> 00:26:22,640
And that's frankly what I'm looking for

650
00:26:20,799 --> 00:26:25,279
is people to tell me what would you

651
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,480
measure? I we're not going to go a whole

652
00:26:25,279 --> 00:26:28,480
season looking at free throw

653
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,240
percentages. Okay, let's measure.

654
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,720
>> And because there is no existing

655
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:34,320
cognitive training, they don't have lots

656
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:37,279
of measures.

657
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:39,200
>> All right. I I I bet you are met with a

658
00:26:37,279 --> 00:26:40,960
lot of like

659
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:44,480
I guess

660
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:47,440
uh reluctance and and and maybe critics

661
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:51,120
that say you know the this neuro uh

662
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:53,520
feedback sort of field has gone through

663
00:26:51,120 --> 00:26:55,440
a tried product market fit scenario

664
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,279
before but you know what you're talking

665
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,679
about here is actual measurement and

666
00:26:57,279 --> 00:27:01,520
actual uh science.

667
00:26:59,679 --> 00:27:04,000
>> Yeah. And and so we in the schools for

668
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:07,039
example in every case we just say what

669
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,960
is it you want to get better at

670
00:27:07,039 --> 00:27:10,480
>> and behavior comes number one for the

671
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,480
teachers. So how do you measure

672
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,559
behavior? Well here's a survey we use

673
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:16,080
great but one of the behavior things we

674
00:27:14,559 --> 00:27:18,799
didn't even think about but it's come

675
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:20,960
through in our most recent work is

676
00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:23,200
there's something called referrals. When

677
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:26,320
a child is really disruptive they get

678
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:29,360
written up in an official referral and

679
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:31,360
three referrals and you're out. And the

680
00:27:29,360 --> 00:27:32,880
number of referrals is down. And that's

681
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:35,919
something that translates to every

682
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,240
teacher in America, that one statement.

683
00:27:35,919 --> 00:27:38,799
>> Yeah.

684
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,880
>> And there's an example. And for the

685
00:27:38,799 --> 00:27:42,400
superintendants, they love the math and

686
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,799
reading scores because that's what's the

687
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,640
front page of the paper when the annual

688
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:50,320
numbers come out.

689
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,840
>> Yep. Tell me about the term

690
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:55,279
neurodeivergent.

691
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,360
It's come up recently and I think you

692
00:27:55,279 --> 00:28:00,159
would be great to explain what this is

693
00:27:57,360 --> 00:28:03,600
and how you how uh what you think about

694
00:28:00,159 --> 00:28:06,559
uh people who have this sort of trait.

695
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:10,640
>> Um yeah, let me explain it from uh from

696
00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:13,440
my own background which uh starts uh in

697
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,880
this case in the field of cancer. I I

698
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,240
actually have a lot of expertise and

699
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,880
background in cancer particularly

700
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:21,520
genomics. I'm helping people work on

701
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:24,399
vaccines right now independently

702
00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:28,080
uh that will come forward very quickly.

703
00:28:24,399 --> 00:28:29,760
Uh and what you discover there is when I

704
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,840
first doing started doing genetic

705
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,320
analysis as an academic in the cancer

706
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,760
field is the pathologists had already

707
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,279
declared how many different types of

708
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:40,080
cancer there were and there were no

709
00:28:37,279 --> 00:28:44,640
more. That was it. If you go back 70

710
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:47,200
years to the WH I guess their blue book

711
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:50,080
uh states there were 50 years ago there

712
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:54,080
was only 50 types of cancer only one

713
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:56,399
type of breast cancer now we have a

714
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:59,120
triple negative her two positive blah

715
00:28:56,399 --> 00:29:01,760
blah blah everything so there's over

716
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:04,720
there's hundreds of different cancers in

717
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:08,080
fact there's 20 major types of breast

718
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,960
cancer and 18 subtypes now just that

719
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,720
H

720
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:13,279
>> and so we're going to see the same thing

721
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:15,440
happen with the brain. There's only two

722
00:29:13,279 --> 00:29:19,200
m there's only two codes for depression.

723
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:21,600
It's basically major and minor. Okay.

724
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:24,720
But everything is a spectrum about human

725
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,480
biology. Everything I've ever looked at

726
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,679
and you know we can find ways to

727
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:33,760
redefine. For example, diabetes is now a

728
00:29:29,679 --> 00:29:36,480
higher A1C than it was 20 years ago

729
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:38,559
because nobody could get to the one we

730
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:41,200
used to have. It's [laughter] normal.

731
00:29:38,559 --> 00:29:43,120
We're now now the index for BMI and

732
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,360
obesity is higher than it used to be.

733
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,360
So, we just change the guidepost like we

734
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:51,279
do with everything else. In mental

735
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:54,159
health, there is no cut off. Uh they say

736
00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:56,559
20% of people have mental health issues.

737
00:29:54,159 --> 00:29:58,640
In fact, it's a 100% of people over the

738
00:29:56,559 --> 00:30:00,320
course of their lifetime.

739
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:03,200
There's no one who doesn't go through a

740
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:06,399
point of some depression or some anxiety

741
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,640
or something else. It's just we said you

742
00:30:06,399 --> 00:30:10,960
got to have a diagnosis in order to get

743
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,200
some treatment and the treatment's very

744
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,559
expensive. You know, it requires if

745
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:17,120
you're going to see a therapist 1 hour.

746
00:30:14,559 --> 00:30:20,080
You can't do 20 minutes. So, that might

747
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,480
work just fine, especially with AI. So

748
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:24,240
what I'm saying is 20 years from now

749
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,720
with these devices like we have, we're

750
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:30,960
going to start to see all the subtypes

751
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:33,360
of brain ability of cognitive behavior,

752
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:35,440
your actual behavior, and we'll say, you

753
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,960
know what, there's 18 types of

754
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:42,080
Parkinson's we see in just the data. We

755
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,640
now know for sure which ones are going

756
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,480
to respond to which drug regimens,

757
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:48,720
>> right? And we're going to see the same

758
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:53,279
thing for nerds. The neurodiversity is

759
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:56,080
just a wide variety of metrics you care

760
00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:58,399
about. Some are manifest in behaviors we

761
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,159
find a little troublesome because maybe

762
00:30:58,399 --> 00:31:02,640
you're always late or maybe who knows

763
00:31:00,159 --> 00:31:04,799
what, you know, but if they're not

764
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,720
troublesome, but that doesn't mean you

765
00:31:04,799 --> 00:31:08,559
can't improve. That's comes back to this

766
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:10,559
idea. It's have a mental gym that I can

767
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:14,799
improve. I can learn a language in six

768
00:31:10,559 --> 00:31:17,919
months with some mental help.

769
00:31:14,799 --> 00:31:20,480
>> That's interesting. Um

770
00:31:17,919 --> 00:31:24,880
what does the FDA say about your device?

771
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:26,399
Like um is it it's there's there's two

772
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:28,799
there's several stakeholders. One is the

773
00:31:26,399 --> 00:31:30,720
user, one is the clinician if you're

774
00:31:28,799 --> 00:31:32,880
going to go the clinical route. The

775
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,039
other is the FDA and then finally the

776
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,880
insurance companies which generally

777
00:31:35,039 --> 00:31:38,399
comes down to Medicare or Medicaid

778
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:42,799
because they're the largest insurer

779
00:31:38,399 --> 00:31:46,720
company. Uh the uh the FDA cares about

780
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:48,399
the claims you make. So when I talk to

781
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,559
people, I've talked to scientists about

782
00:31:48,399 --> 00:31:52,960
their neurochnology. It could be like a

783
00:31:50,559 --> 00:31:55,120
a music app that entrains the mind in a

784
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,720
certain frequency. They say, "Well,

785
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,840
we're going after Parkinson's." I said,

786
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:02,320
"Why? Everybody likes music. Everybody

787
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:04,640
wants to have a better be a better

788
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:07,440
dancer. Why would you confine yourself

789
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:10,960
to have to get a diagnosis?" And in this

790
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,720
digital health space, you can't change.

791
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,519
We couldn't change our game if we got it

792
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,919
approved. Imagine

793
00:32:15,519 --> 00:32:20,080
in this world of AI not being able to

794
00:32:17,919 --> 00:32:22,559
change it. So it goes from Skyler to

795
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:24,159
Johan's journey,

796
00:32:22,559 --> 00:32:25,679
>> you know, and all of these things have

797
00:32:24,159 --> 00:32:27,600
to go through one more reg and there's

798
00:32:25,679 --> 00:32:30,960
nothing. It's 100% safe. These

799
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:34,320
technologies are out there. So when it

800
00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:36,000
comes to the FDA, they are compliant and

801
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:38,240
they're willing to do this, but it comes

802
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:41,600
down to what's the claim you're making,

803
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:43,360
>> right? And the other the insurance

804
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:45,760
companies want to get return on their

805
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:48,320
investment.

806
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,840
So that's why that's why I want to make

807
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,960
this dirt cheap.

808
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,720
>> Yeah.

809
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,080
>> If if this comes out as a clinical

810
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,480
product, it's going to be several

811
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,120
thousand required prescription from your

812
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,120
doctor.

813
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,320
>> It doesn't need to be. It's for kids in

814
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:03,519
school.

815
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:05,279
>> And then you have so we're there's an in

816
00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:06,799
between space. There's the FDA and then

817
00:33:05,279 --> 00:33:08,799
there's I'll call it loosely the

818
00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:11,200
neutrauticals where there's broad claims

819
00:33:08,799 --> 00:33:13,919
and no meaningful data. There's an in

820
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,519
between space that we're blazing and I'm

821
00:33:13,919 --> 00:33:18,240
really procilitizing all the

822
00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:19,679
neuroscientists I know. Publish the

823
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,480
data. We're not going to work on

824
00:33:19,679 --> 00:33:21,760
everything.

825
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:24,960
>> Mhm.

826
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,159
>> But publish the data and then I'm also

827
00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:29,440
and [clears throat] then people can make

828
00:33:26,159 --> 00:33:30,880
their own decision because it's safe

829
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:33,200
whether they want to do it or not. It's

830
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,640
like plastic surgery or Botox. It's

831
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,080
safe. You decide whether you want to do

832
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:39,519
it.

833
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:42,399
>> Are something called peptides safe?

834
00:33:39,519 --> 00:33:46,159
>> Yes, they well there you can make bad

835
00:33:42,399 --> 00:33:48,480
peptides. Okay. And it's a vir viral or

836
00:33:46,159 --> 00:33:50,000
bacterial po uh toxins are often

837
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:53,200
peptides

838
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:56,720
for example. Uh peptides

839
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:59,600
um it's uh how would I want to approach

840
00:33:56,720 --> 00:34:02,000
that? Uh peptides are nothing different

841
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,679
than small proteins. Insulin is a

842
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,480
peptide. I see

843
00:34:03,679 --> 00:34:09,839
>> look how many people take insulin in

844
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:13,599
this world and it was we als we have

845
00:34:09,839 --> 00:34:15,599
other peptides GLP-1's a peptide

846
00:34:13,599 --> 00:34:18,720
>> why why are they making such a a

847
00:34:15,599 --> 00:34:20,159
comeback within uh I guess the youth of

848
00:34:18,720 --> 00:34:22,639
today

849
00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:25,119
>> it's they've been targeting uh high

850
00:34:22,639 --> 00:34:26,879
performance athletes when I talk about

851
00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:30,240
I've taught bioeththics when I talk

852
00:34:26,879 --> 00:34:32,240
about adoption of new uh technologies it

853
00:34:30,240 --> 00:34:34,560
always starts the same with a with an

854
00:34:32,240 --> 00:34:36,320
orphan rare childhood disease because

855
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,040
nobody's going to argue about the cost

856
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:42,159
or the need to do it and then over the

857
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:45,760
course of time as it the safety profile

858
00:34:42,159 --> 00:34:49,679
shows it's perfectly safe like a peptide

859
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,359
in some cases or even in the case of the

860
00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:56,000
training for the tour to France in the

861
00:34:51,359 --> 00:34:58,800
old days um then the price comes down it

862
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,760
ends up going into high performance and

863
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,720
beauty beauty or aging you know Botox

864
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:06,880
toxic H human growth hormone Barry Bonds

865
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:09,520
and all these baseball players they were

866
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,400
taking doses that were so high it was

867
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,680
stupid.

868
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:15,839
>> Mhm.

869
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:18,320
>> But if now we're talking about with GLP1

870
00:35:15,839 --> 00:35:20,000
in this peptide universe it's you have

871
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:23,359
to inject it. You can't swallow them

872
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:26,800
right now. Something is 100% natural is

873
00:35:23,359 --> 00:35:29,040
what your body already uses.

874
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:31,839
And that's the beauty of it. Unlike

875
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:34,640
pills that you swallow, the body doesn't

876
00:35:31,839 --> 00:35:37,200
make any of those compounds, right? Some

877
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:40,480
come from nature, many, but these are

878
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:45,040
actual natural uh components of your own

879
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:47,119
body. And so what I do is I measure and

880
00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:48,800
adjust.

881
00:35:47,119 --> 00:35:51,280
Measure what's going on and make sure

882
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:53,040
you're adjusting properly to get into

883
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,599
the right range. And so in the case of

884
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:58,240
the peptides, that step is missing. What

885
00:35:55,599 --> 00:36:00,240
are you measuring and adjusting to?

886
00:35:58,240 --> 00:36:02,960
If I'm just taking it like I take a

887
00:36:00,240 --> 00:36:04,640
supplement and I know I know people who

888
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:07,040
take 40 supplements and I'll say, "Well,

889
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:10,160
what's that one for?" And they'll for my

890
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:13,040
immune system. What on earth does that

891
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,920
mean? Show me what the purpose is. And

892
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:18,400
so the at normal levels levels,

893
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:20,640
especially as you get older, all of

894
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,800
these hormone systems

895
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,720
begin to fall apart. That's why we get

896
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:26,160
cancer. That's why we get diabetes.

897
00:36:24,720 --> 00:36:28,079
That's why our muscles weaken. That's

898
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:30,560
why we lose our memory because they're

899
00:36:28,079 --> 00:36:33,760
all on a decline. If we just brought

900
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:35,280
them back into the natural range, it

901
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,480
would be great. In fact, I've given many

902
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,160
lectures saying, "I'd like to make an

903
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:40,560
organ that makes about 50 of those

904
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:43,040
things just naturally at the same level

905
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,720
I was at it when I was 50. I did one at

906
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:46,079
the science museum. It's two little old

907
00:36:44,720 --> 00:36:48,880
ladies came running up to me. They're

908
00:36:46,079 --> 00:36:53,040
not so old." Uh, and said, "Where do I

909
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:55,359
get this organ? I want it right away."

910
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:58,000
Oh, man. that that that would uh that

911
00:36:55,359 --> 00:37:00,480
would do well I guess. Uh that's that's

912
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,400
interesting. So So GLP1 is the chemical

913
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,119
compound or is that that's the peptide

914
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,320
name?

915
00:37:03,119 --> 00:37:08,880
>> That that's the name of the GLP1 that is

916
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:12,400
gluc glucanol like peptide one. Yes,

917
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:14,960
that's the one that's goi and mont all

918
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,000
the weight loss drugs that are globally.

919
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,640
>> I see. Interesting.

920
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,280
>> The toxicity of those has been a little

921
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:24,079
nause. That's one of the purposes of

922
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:27,599
GLP-1 is when you've eaten too much like

923
00:37:24,079 --> 00:37:29,200
at Thanksgiving, GLP1 makes you feel

924
00:37:27,599 --> 00:37:31,119
nauseous.

925
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,000
>> Interesting.

926
00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:36,320
>> Okay. Um,

927
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:39,520
what do you think about

928
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,000
uh your products pollination or

929
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,320
cross-pollination with AI? There's a lot

930
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:46,480
that you can that you can do with the

931
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,720
data. Um,

932
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:50,880
>> yeah. Uh, I have a few thoughts about

933
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:54,560
that. first just to speak about data se

934
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:57,839
privacy and and safety. Uh you know we

935
00:37:54,560 --> 00:38:01,391
got social media a bit wrong in terms of

936
00:37:57,839 --> 00:38:03,599
where the the guidelines are and and the

937
00:38:01,391 --> 00:38:05,040
[snorts] borders uh and we're trying to

938
00:38:03,599 --> 00:38:07,599
correct that now. I think we grossly

939
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:09,119
underestimated as a society what the

940
00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:12,079
implications were for a lot of the

941
00:38:09,119 --> 00:38:14,000
social media devices in the neuro techch

942
00:38:12,079 --> 00:38:15,599
field the the whole everybody's trying

943
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,359
to get out in front not everybody people

944
00:38:15,599 --> 00:38:18,720
like me and others trying to get out in

945
00:38:17,359 --> 00:38:21,440
front of it. There's actually four

946
00:38:18,720 --> 00:38:24,880
groups now that are nonprofits that are

947
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:26,720
that are working on neuroche uh neur

948
00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:29,680
neuro your neurorites. There's a

949
00:38:26,720 --> 00:38:33,440
neurorites foundation. I spoke I spoke

950
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:36,079
the other day to Stephen uh who runs the

951
00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:38,320
organization about aligning ourselves

952
00:38:36,079 --> 00:38:41,520
because the only thing I really worry

953
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:43,520
about I in terms of safety and security

954
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:47,040
and privacy we have the HIPPO

955
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:50,000
regulations to follow as a guideline

956
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:53,760
and in schools in particular

957
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:55,839
uh privacy is enormously important and

958
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,839
>> being in there even near their computer

959
00:38:55,839 --> 00:38:58,800
systems is a problem in all of this

960
00:38:57,839 --> 00:39:01,119
Right.

961
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,280
>> So, we're good citizens on that front,

962
00:39:01,119 --> 00:39:04,960
but we have to extend it to into the

963
00:39:03,280 --> 00:39:07,040
video gaming universe and everywhere

964
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:09,119
else. What is Don't take people's data.

965
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:10,960
I mean, it's from their without telling

966
00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:12,480
them. Don't infuse information into

967
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:14,160
their brains without telling them. Those

968
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,599
are the obvious things.

969
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,440
>> But right now, we're trying to figure

970
00:39:15,599 --> 00:39:19,680
out where do we draw draw the

971
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,119
guidelines. And what I'm what I'm

972
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,119
recommending to all of these groups is

973
00:39:21,119 --> 00:39:25,680
we don't know what we don't know yet.

974
00:39:23,119 --> 00:39:27,520
Because that was absolutely true. We

975
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:28,720
can't envision what technology is going

976
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,640
to exist

977
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:32,880
>> and so let's not make the rules are so

978
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,800
hard and fast that nothing new can

979
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,880
happen. And I said, "The only thing I

980
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:40,240
really care about

981
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:42,960
for me, because we're a good actor, is

982
00:39:40,240 --> 00:39:46,560
that people don't come along and ruin

983
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:48,640
the field for us by making claims that

984
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:51,040
are unfounded

985
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,040
>> or doing something that makes no sense

986
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:55,520
or doing a knockoff of ours and saying

987
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:58,320
it's just as good without any credible

988
00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:00,079
evidence." And so that's the idea is

989
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,119
let's build a standard. Uh they're

990
00:40:00,079 --> 00:40:03,280
actually

991
00:40:01,119 --> 00:40:07,200
>> yeah that might work.

992
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:10,000
>> The the data is going to be incredibly

993
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:12,960
valuable. Um but you're right there

994
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:16,400
there needs to be privacy here and in

995
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:18,240
Canada like we have this I'm consulting

996
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:18,800
somebody about um

997
00:40:18,240 --> 00:40:20,880
>> Mhm.

998
00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:23,359
>> this similar type of thing that they're

999
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,520
collecting health data and it it can't

1000
00:40:23,359 --> 00:40:26,720
go to the cloud and into somebody's

1001
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:30,079
model. Yeah.

1002
00:40:26,720 --> 00:40:31,760
>> Um, it has to stay local. Uh, which is,

1003
00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:33,040
uh, one of the things that my company

1004
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,079
does for

1005
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:39,359
>> for clients is just to to keep their

1006
00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:40,720
data safe, right? Uh, so I guess you

1007
00:40:39,359 --> 00:40:42,000
have a similar challenge about how

1008
00:40:40,720 --> 00:40:43,440
you're collecting this data and where

1009
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:46,160
it's stored.

1010
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:47,920
>> We do. Uh right now when we're in the

1011
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:51,280
real world and we with a paying

1012
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,040
customer, we do we leave all the data on

1013
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,480
the headset except a single number

1014
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:57,680
that's derived from it

1015
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:59,760
>> that controls a video game. And so we do

1016
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,839
collect the game performance metrics

1017
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,839
because that allows us to go across the

1018
00:41:01,839 --> 00:41:05,359
13 categories and tell how well you're

1019
00:41:03,839 --> 00:41:06,800
doing in each skill or whether you're

1020
00:41:05,359 --> 00:41:08,240
improving.

1021
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,560
>> That but again that's within the

1022
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:12,480
confidentiality of the system we're

1023
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,800
living within. But there are other

1024
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,800
companies and we can obviously open ours

1025
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:19,119
up and we will under IRB when we want to

1026
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:20,960
go after another field. Imagine we

1027
00:41:19,119 --> 00:41:23,359
wanted to work with drug addiction for

1028
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:25,280
example or something. We might want to

1029
00:41:23,359 --> 00:41:27,680
see a signal in there that's we're not

1030
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,200
picking up now because it's a different

1031
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,440
situation.

1032
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:32,640
>> Uh so but there are companies right now

1033
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:34,400
that are putting all the data in the

1034
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:37,359
cloud.

1035
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:39,520
The real value becomes when you have the

1036
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:41,520
outcome data linked to it. No different

1037
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:44,000
than in any of the other clinical

1038
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:46,079
settings. So the outcome is did the

1039
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,040
student do better better or worse on the

1040
00:41:46,079 --> 00:41:47,280
test.

1041
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,200
>> Yeah.

1042
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:51,839
>> Did the athlete hit a home run or strike

1043
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:53,680
out? Those kinds of things. If they're

1044
00:41:51,839 --> 00:41:55,839
not there, you can't sub. You'll see

1045
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,920
subgroups like I did when the original

1046
00:41:55,839 --> 00:41:59,520
days were looking at cancer genomics.

1047
00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,280
Look at all these different subtypes,

1048
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,520
but we didn't have any idea how to treat

1049
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:05,200
them or what and we had no difference in

1050
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,920
the outcomes. They just existed as

1051
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,760
different.

1052
00:42:07,920 --> 00:42:13,359
That's interesting. So that's all the

1053
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:16,640
the the valuable data is whether or not

1054
00:42:13,359 --> 00:42:17,520
it caused a noticeable improvement in

1055
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:19,680
there.

1056
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,400
>> Yeah, it's some outcome event that you

1057
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:24,079
can track and say it could even be on

1058
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:26,400
entry. Here's the data that coming in.

1059
00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:28,000
These are the kids who are the most

1060
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:32,079
successful. We could see that before

1061
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:33,599
they did the first mission even.

1062
00:42:32,079 --> 00:42:36,880
>> Interesting.

1063
00:42:33,599 --> 00:42:39,440
What is your advice to

1064
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:41,359
startups and entrepreneurs these days

1065
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:42,960
that you you sit on a lot of boards and

1066
00:42:41,359 --> 00:42:45,599
you you you're

1067
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:48,560
>> um you see the startup ecosystem for

1068
00:42:45,599 --> 00:42:50,240
what it is. Uh and and what is a a

1069
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:53,920
couple pieces of advice that you would

1070
00:42:50,240 --> 00:42:56,480
give to a startup in like the seed to to

1071
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:59,040
series 8 sort of range?

1072
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:01,040
>> Uh a few things. Uh the CEO's only job

1073
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:04,560
is raising money. Let me repeat that.

1074
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:07,280
the CEO shop host job is raising money

1075
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:10,720
as a VC they all they would do is talk

1076
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:12,400
technology and they had no idea what I

1077
00:43:10,720 --> 00:43:15,280
was interested in which is the other

1078
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:17,200
thing is before you meet with anybody

1079
00:43:15,280 --> 00:43:18,880
doesn't matter if it's a customer

1080
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:21,760
potential collaborator potential

1081
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:24,880
investor think about what it is that

1082
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:27,200
they care most about 99% of

1083
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:30,960
entrepreneurs only talk about what they

1084
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:33,280
know and what they care the most about

1085
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,880
>> that's interesting. Um what you're

1086
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:41,119
saying is like some CEOs they are maybe

1087
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:44,960
too involved in product and design and

1088
00:43:41,119 --> 00:43:46,160
not enough on just focusing on finances

1089
00:43:44,960 --> 00:43:47,599
and and raising.

1090
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,119
>> Yeah. I mean a simpler question when I

1091
00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:51,599
was a VCA used say let's assume your

1092
00:43:49,119 --> 00:43:54,000
technology works is perfect. Uh all

1093
00:43:51,599 --> 00:43:56,800
right um who [snorts] you going to sell

1094
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:59,280
it to? and they'll say, you know,

1095
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,440
they'll say, uh, uh, well, there's,

1096
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,880
imagine it's a cancer diagnostic and do

1097
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,800
something about that. Well, there's

1098
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,960
there's all these diagnostic labs out

1099
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,560
there that I'm sure they'll want it.

1100
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,800
Well, could you tell me the name of one

1101
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:13,119
that you've talked to and how much they

1102
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,720
would pay for it? [laughter]

1103
00:44:13,119 --> 00:44:18,040
I even had one person say, "Well, that's

1104
00:44:14,720 --> 00:44:18,040
your job."

1105
00:44:18,675 --> 00:44:22,000
[laughter]

1106
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:24,000
No, if you don't if you've never talked

1107
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,520
to a customer,

1108
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,200
how do you have any idea what you're

1109
00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:29,599
talking? So, that's what an investor

1110
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,400
wants to know. Who's going to buy this?

1111
00:44:29,599 --> 00:44:33,839
As I said, assume it works perfectly.

1112
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,920
Who's going to buy it?

1113
00:44:33,839 --> 00:44:38,720
>> That was on my mind.

1114
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:40,640
>> And and that's just such a such great

1115
00:44:38,720 --> 00:44:43,359
advice because the customer is always

1116
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:45,520
right in this regard. Like you can't

1117
00:44:43,359 --> 00:44:46,880
>> you you you that when somebody throws

1118
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,880
their money down to buy a product from

1119
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:51,040
you that's everything that you need as a

1120
00:44:48,880 --> 00:44:52,560
founder right like that's everything

1121
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,240
>> and what will they pay for it I mean you

1122
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:56,480
asked me earlier you know can I buy it

1123
00:44:54,240 --> 00:44:57,680
directly and as consumer we know we

1124
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,760
could charge a lot of money for it but

1125
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:02,720
we know a lot of people would fail

1126
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,800
>> if they didn't have the right uh

1127
00:45:02,720 --> 00:45:07,359
guidance from us going into the the

1128
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:10,000
experience. So that's why we cut our

1129
00:45:07,359 --> 00:45:12,000
figure we figure it out with kids to

1130
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,599
start with because they're kind and we

1131
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,359
just keep moving on.

1132
00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:17,520
>> Yeah. At the end of the day, you you

1133
00:45:15,359 --> 00:45:20,240
need the the case studies, right? So

1134
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:22,640
>> yeah, absolutely. And the proof points

1135
00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:24,880
that shows it and and those and so as

1136
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:27,440
for an entrepreneur, you stop building

1137
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:29,359
the technology at the expense of testing

1138
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,800
it. All right. I'm using it with

1139
00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:33,839
someone.

1140
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:36,720
>> On that not though, like if you if you

1141
00:45:33,839 --> 00:45:38,480
could put the think set headset on

1142
00:45:36,720 --> 00:45:41,200
anybody you wanted to, who would you put

1143
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:45,520
it on?

1144
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:47,280
>> Uh I would like uh to see it on uh Lo

1145
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,359
Messi. I'd like to see him actually

1146
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:52,560
perform on this.

1147
00:45:49,359 --> 00:45:54,240
>> Wow. Are you uh for this World Cup, man?

1148
00:45:52,560 --> 00:45:55,680
That would be some interesting

1149
00:45:54,240 --> 00:45:57,520
>> Absolutely. I mean, if he if he did it

1150
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,560
before, I'd like to see how how well he

1151
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:03,040
can pop cuz elite athletes can jump

1152
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:05,200
right into this space until they hit a

1153
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,440
skill when they fail because they all do

1154
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:09,839
like mission four, five or six, then

1155
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:10,880
they have a complete meltdown.

1156
00:46:09,839 --> 00:46:12,960
>> Yeah.

1157
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,040
>> But there some people like, you know,

1158
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,480
Michael Jordan and others, they blow

1159
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,960
right through it.

1160
00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:21,680
>> Yeah. Interesting. because that's a

1161
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:25,040
natural skill they have that they

1162
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:26,800
learned on their own and were born with

1163
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,319
that differentiates them so much

1164
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:31,119
>> that that's where the term you're a

1165
00:46:28,319 --> 00:46:33,200
natural comes from, right? Uh

1166
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:35,920
>> and every single athlete says there was

1167
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:38,000
someone more skilled than I was in when

1168
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:39,119
I was in school, but I had the ability

1169
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:43,200
to win.

1170
00:46:39,119 --> 00:46:44,960
>> Yeah, that's interesting. Um and and on

1171
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:48,319
that note, I'll wrap it up with this.

1172
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:50,160
like you you've been around in the field

1173
00:46:48,319 --> 00:46:53,920
for some time. What's one thing about

1174
00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,599
the brain that in 20 years uh will

1175
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,440
surprise everybody, but you kind of see

1176
00:46:55,599 --> 00:47:00,480
it going that way?

1177
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:03,440
>> I what I see is PE again just think

1178
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:06,000
about going from 16 apps to 1.9 million

1179
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,400
on the iPhone. I see there being so many

1180
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:11,760
technologies that will enable us to

1181
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,920
accelerate the way we learn and the

1182
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:17,440
skills we have. So imagine me expanding

1183
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:19,680
beyond five senses to having, you know,

1184
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,440
infrared or whatever, being able to be a

1185
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:22,800
tactile sense or something else that

1186
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,680
your brain can train because our brain

1187
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:27,920
has such plasticity. If you lose a limb,

1188
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,079
you can figure out how to how to, you

1189
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:32,640
know, write with your feet or whatever.

1190
00:47:30,079 --> 00:47:34,319
We have so much opportunity that people

1191
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,000
are going to find, you know, I don't

1192
00:47:34,319 --> 00:47:38,000
know how to play music. Well, let's put

1193
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,920
together a music thing. So, it's good to

1194
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:45,040
be an enjoyable training of doing music

1195
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:46,560
lessons. [laughter]

1196
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,400
>> I remember trying to learn the piano

1197
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,240
when I was a kid and was such a pain.

1198
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,240
But I I see what you're saying like if

1199
00:47:50,240 --> 00:47:54,480
you can diagnose it, if you can label it

1200
00:47:52,240 --> 00:47:55,760
and you can have a customized learning

1201
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,000
plan to learn that piano

1202
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:59,680
>> going as you're going, it's it's

1203
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,119
teaching you the rhythm just and you're

1204
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:03,920
keeping up with it and it's just pushing

1205
00:48:01,119 --> 00:48:04,240
you just a touch every step of the way.

1206
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:05,920
>> Yeah. Yeah.

1207
00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:07,839
>> And maybe there's a tactile sense cuz

1208
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,920
you have poor sense of beat in your own

1209
00:48:07,839 --> 00:48:12,560
brain that's just going against your

1210
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:14,400
hand with a little uh that gets you at

1211
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:16,319
the right beat at the same time is

1212
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,000
training that part of your brain.

1213
00:48:16,319 --> 00:48:19,520
>> Yeah, I am not coordinated in that

1214
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:22,000
regard and I think that's something that

1215
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:24,640
would help me. Thanks, Steve. This has

1216
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:26,559
been an amazing conversation. I think

1217
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:28,240
it's going to do uh it's going to help a

1218
00:48:26,559 --> 00:48:30,000
lot of people in my audience. Thank you

1219
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:33,760
for coming. Let's stay in touch. All

1220
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,760
right. Thanks, Johan. A lot of fun.