1 00:00:05,894 --> 00:00:07,914 [music] 2 00:00:14,639 --> 00:00:20,240 Um, 3 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:23,039 as a dot of two, I I totally get how two 4 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:24,400 can be overwhelming, but nine, I mean, 5 00:00:23,039 --> 00:00:25,279 yeah, obviously some are out of the 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:27,599 house, right? 7 00:00:25,279 --> 00:00:29,599 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and they they 8 00:00:27,599 --> 00:00:32,239 get more more helpful, you know, at 9 00:00:29,599 --> 00:00:34,800 first. I think two is two to three is 10 00:00:32,239 --> 00:00:36,480 maximum pain. After that, it's it gets 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:36,960 easier because you have like people on 12 00:00:36,480 --> 00:00:39,200 your team. 13 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:41,280 >> So, it goes downhill after that. 14 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,960 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They start becoming uh 15 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,640 really, you know, helpful taking care of 16 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:46,079 the other ones and entertaining them. 17 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,079 That's the hardest thing about kids is 18 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:49,440 just keeping them entertained. So, 19 00:00:48,079 --> 00:00:51,760 >> you know, you get a pile of them 20 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,320 together, then it's not so bad. 21 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:57,920 And I I guess you got your own uh person 22 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:59,600 to to mow the lawn. Maybe one of them. 23 00:00:57,920 --> 00:01:01,600 >> Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true. 24 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,840 Yeah. Yeah. I They They actually don't 25 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:05,199 do that, but they do The older ones do a 26 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:07,040 lot of cooking, you know. They pick 27 00:01:05,199 --> 00:01:08,799 stuff that they're into. And 28 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,320 fortunately, I I have a bunch that 29 00:01:08,799 --> 00:01:11,680 really like cooking, so that works out 30 00:01:10,320 --> 00:01:13,360 really well. 31 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:16,000 >> Oh, that's amazing. My daughter loves 32 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,360 cooking and baking. Not good for uh my 33 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:18,400 figure, but what are you gonna do, 34 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,520 right? 35 00:01:18,400 --> 00:01:24,240 >> Yeah. Yeah, that's great. 36 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:26,479 Well, uh, pleasure to have you on today. 37 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:28,479 Second episode of Pale Blue Nexus. On 38 00:01:26,479 --> 00:01:30,640 the first episode, we had a a guy called 39 00:01:28,479 --> 00:01:33,119 Jim Rogers and, uh, he was awesome. 40 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:36,079 Pleasure to have you back on, talk to 41 00:01:33,119 --> 00:01:38,320 you again and get to know a little bit 42 00:01:36,079 --> 00:01:40,240 more about Softron and and what you're 43 00:01:38,320 --> 00:01:42,320 you're doing over there. Tell us about 44 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,360 yourself first, Jack, and like your your 45 00:01:42,320 --> 00:01:46,880 journey, and we'll get into Softron. 46 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:49,439 >> Did you say this is only the second 47 00:01:46,880 --> 00:01:51,600 episode of the podcast? 48 00:01:49,439 --> 00:01:53,600 I've done many 49 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,560 podcasts before, but this current 50 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:58,159 version of this new brand, it's the 51 00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:59,920 second episode. Yes. 52 00:01:58,159 --> 00:02:01,920 >> Oh, right on. Right on. Very cool. Well, 53 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:05,040 I'm glad to uh I'm glad to be guest 54 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:07,680 number two. That's cool. Um yeah, so so 55 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:09,920 Softron um the the way that I describe 56 00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:12,480 it now is is a little bit different 57 00:02:09,920 --> 00:02:16,400 because of all the interest in in AI 58 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:18,080 agents and um so there was a lot of uh a 59 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,760 lot of excitement around like open claw 60 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:22,000 and a lot of the use cases that people 61 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,319 were excited about were things like oh 62 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:26,080 it can balance my checkbook or you know 63 00:02:24,319 --> 00:02:28,720 it can pay my bills it can do things 64 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:29,920 like that and if you actually tried it I 65 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,760 mean there were people that kind of 66 00:02:29,920 --> 00:02:34,080 faked it if you actually tried it it 67 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,800 didn't work because all the banks and a 68 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,160 lot of the web apps and a lot of the 69 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:41,200 things you'd be interested in connecting 70 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,200 to actually use blocking and openclaw, 71 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,920 you know, used a a very simple kind of 72 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,680 screen scraping navigation tool. Um, and 73 00:02:45,920 --> 00:02:50,560 it gets blocked really easily. So, 74 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:52,959 Softron is basically gives AI agents the 75 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:55,760 ability to connect to banks, credit 76 00:02:52,959 --> 00:02:57,840 unions, utilities, things like that, a 77 00:02:55,760 --> 00:03:00,400 lot of financial services that would 78 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:02,480 normally otherwise prevent it. So if you 79 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,400 tell your agent, you know, connect to 80 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,159 cash app and it won't let you, then 81 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:08,480 Softron can help that agent connect to 82 00:03:06,159 --> 00:03:10,400 Cash App. 83 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,760 >> Now, how did you start this? I was 84 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,959 looking into your background a little 85 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:17,360 bit and you came from Microsoft. Is it 86 00:03:14,959 --> 00:03:20,080 is it safe to say that? 87 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:22,159 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Most of my career I 88 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:23,680 was was in the military uh and signals 89 00:03:22,159 --> 00:03:26,159 intelligence and then pretty much went 90 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:29,040 straight to Microsoft after that. Uh so 91 00:03:26,159 --> 00:03:32,720 yeah, 20 yearsish um in and around 92 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:34,560 Microsoft. Um kind of started back back 93 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,400 when there was a big push. Uh Bill Gates 94 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,159 was really trying to push security. We 95 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,040 had a bunch of uh worms that took over 96 00:03:38,159 --> 00:03:42,799 the internet and uh um security was 97 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,040 becoming a really important thing. So 98 00:03:42,799 --> 00:03:48,239 most of my career was focused on that uh 99 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:52,319 software security, software design um at 100 00:03:48,239 --> 00:03:56,080 Microsoft. Um, and then uh in what was 101 00:03:52,319 --> 00:03:57,840 that 2014 I I created one of the first I 102 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,200 I think it was actually the first online 103 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:01,519 accounting software for small 104 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,159 businesses. Um, QuickBooks Online hadn't 105 00:04:01,519 --> 00:04:06,000 released yet and um ended up selling 106 00:04:04,159 --> 00:04:08,640 that to a company based in New Zealand 107 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:10,080 called Zero that was expanding out. 108 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:11,360 Spent a couple years in the Bay Area 109 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,519 after that and then yeah, that was 110 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:15,599 almost 10 years ago and then started uh 111 00:04:13,519 --> 00:04:18,639 Softron. So Softron's been going for 112 00:04:15,599 --> 00:04:21,280 about a decade now. Um, and it was a 113 00:04:18,639 --> 00:04:23,440 little bit of a synthesis of my security 114 00:04:21,280 --> 00:04:26,720 background and my co-founders as well. 115 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:29,040 Kind of the same team that that were 116 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:30,800 working on security issues. Then we kind 117 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,160 of moved over to fintech together and 118 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:35,360 then, you know, all of our background 119 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:36,880 was in like AI and security. So, it made 120 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:38,800 sense for us to kind of move back 121 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:41,199 towards something that was like Softron. 122 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:44,080 It's basically it's basically a security 123 00:04:41,199 --> 00:04:46,080 company wrapped in kind of a fintech 124 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,240 veneer, I would say. So yeah, that's how 125 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,840 we got started. And the the thesis 126 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:52,000 behind the business was really that AI 127 00:04:49,840 --> 00:04:54,400 would make screen scraping work. There 128 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,919 was a lot of screen scraping going on at 129 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:57,600 that time. There still is because a lot 130 00:04:55,919 --> 00:04:59,360 of people if they have APIs, they 131 00:04:57,600 --> 00:05:01,120 actually they want to lock down their 132 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,440 ecosystem, right? They don't necessarily 133 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:05,919 want to have anybody be able to connect 134 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:08,720 and just migrate away their users. So 135 00:05:05,919 --> 00:05:10,960 there's this big, you know, debate and 136 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,759 philosophical issue of like, you know, 137 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,360 when you sign up for a utility, is it 138 00:05:13,759 --> 00:05:17,919 your data? you know, is it it's your 139 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:19,840 address and phone number and full name 140 00:05:17,919 --> 00:05:21,919 and date of birth. Is that your data or 141 00:05:19,840 --> 00:05:23,360 is it their data? And if it's your data, 142 00:05:21,919 --> 00:05:25,360 then you should be able to take it out, 143 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:27,600 but they'll say, "Oh, it's our data." 144 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:28,960 And also for security reasons, we don't 145 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,880 want you to be able to access it with 146 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:32,960 any kind of automation. Right? So, and 147 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:35,680 there's some truth to to that 148 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,600 motivation, but but um but there's also 149 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:39,280 a lot of hey, this is our proprietary 150 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:40,800 data. This is our moat. We don't you 151 00:05:39,280 --> 00:05:42,639 know, we don't want that to go out. The 152 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,840 banks have done that quite a bit. Chase 153 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:45,039 recently, you know, there was a big 154 00:05:43,840 --> 00:05:48,080 thing where they said that they were 155 00:05:45,039 --> 00:05:49,680 actually going to charge you if you 156 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,840 wanted to connect like if you connect 157 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:54,160 with Softron or Plaid or one of these 158 00:05:51,840 --> 00:05:55,680 companies to let's say you're using Cash 159 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:58,880 App and you want to connect Chase to 160 00:05:55,680 --> 00:06:00,080 Cash App. Chase is threatening and it's 161 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,639 not really clear how it's going to work 162 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,880 out, but to charge actually for that. 163 00:06:02,639 --> 00:06:06,479 So, you know, not only is it not your 164 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:07,680 data, but if you want to access it, 165 00:06:06,479 --> 00:06:10,319 you're going to have to pay them to 166 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:12,240 access it. So our whole thesis was we 167 00:06:10,319 --> 00:06:14,000 had been users of that and seen that it 168 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,960 was a nightmare and we thought well you 169 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:20,240 know this is in 2014 20 I guess it was 170 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:22,639 more like 2016. Um but we thought yeah 171 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:24,720 AI is perfect for this right like it's 172 00:06:22,639 --> 00:06:27,199 not there yet but eventually it will get 173 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:29,440 good enough. Um and so within the first 174 00:06:27,199 --> 00:06:31,280 year we actually had 6,000 banks and 175 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:33,440 credit unions that we could connect to. 176 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:36,400 Um landed our first couple Anchor 177 00:06:33,440 --> 00:06:38,080 customers. Um and uh yeah, if you've 178 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,600 connected your bank account to like a 179 00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:41,680 fintech app, there's a reasonable chance 180 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,360 you can use Softron in the background. 181 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,720 You just haven't haven't known it. Um 182 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:47,600 unless you dig through the terms of 183 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:49,680 service, then you might see our name. 184 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:52,000 >> Do do you have to happen an example of 185 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:54,800 uh a fintech app that uh is pretty 186 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:56,479 popular that people use? 187 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,440 >> Yeah. So the way that our business works 188 00:06:56,479 --> 00:07:01,919 is you have you have aggre like most of 189 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:04,720 our business right now is we're similar 190 00:07:01,919 --> 00:07:06,639 to like a plaid. So we call those like 191 00:07:04,720 --> 00:07:09,120 aggregators. So you have like Plaid or 192 00:07:06,639 --> 00:07:10,960 Yodi or you know these sort of guys that 193 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,960 are out there and then what we do is we 194 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:14,639 sit behind them and take all of the 195 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,919 difficult connections. So they might 196 00:07:14,639 --> 00:07:19,840 connect to you know bank ABC if it's 197 00:07:17,919 --> 00:07:21,199 really easy and they have a generous API 198 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:23,599 because they're not actually trying to 199 00:07:21,199 --> 00:07:25,280 to hold users hostage but then if they 200 00:07:23,599 --> 00:07:26,800 want to connect to bank DF they send 201 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,120 that traffic through softron in the 202 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:31,520 background. So um so there there are 203 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:34,240 some apps that I know of where uh where 204 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:36,160 our customers are servicing those apps 205 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,160 but of course that's all under pretty 206 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,000 strict NDA. So I can't run around and 207 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,319 say like X Y and Z is powered by 208 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,919 something. 209 00:07:40,319 --> 00:07:45,199 >> Okay. Yeah, I know I know how that 210 00:07:41,919 --> 00:07:48,160 works. And uh so so you're like the 211 00:07:45,199 --> 00:07:50,000 financial open the open financial data 212 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:51,199 layer is what you're you're going for 213 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:53,039 here. 214 00:07:51,199 --> 00:07:55,440 >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I mean at the end 215 00:07:53,039 --> 00:07:57,199 of the day if you want to if you want to 216 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,280 have any automation connect to your bank 217 00:07:57,199 --> 00:08:02,000 account you need somebody like Softron 218 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:04,479 to make that happen because the bank is 219 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:06,879 spending a lot of money to try to keep 220 00:08:04,479 --> 00:08:08,479 your data in their ecosystem. it's in 221 00:08:06,879 --> 00:08:11,120 their best interest. If you wanted to, 222 00:08:08,479 --> 00:08:12,879 for example, let's say you install my 223 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:15,039 car loan app from the app store and 224 00:08:12,879 --> 00:08:16,639 you're like, I want to get a car loan. 225 00:08:15,039 --> 00:08:18,240 That's a direct competitor with somebody 226 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:21,440 like, you know, Bank of America or Wells 227 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:23,440 Fargo or even like Boeing Employees 228 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,120 Credit Union or something like that. So, 229 00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:26,800 they want to make that car loan. They 230 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:29,120 don't necessarily like they're really 231 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:32,080 not financially incentivized to make it 232 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:34,000 easier for my car loan app to connect to 233 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:36,320 Boeing employees credit union, pull that 234 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:40,159 data down and then make a make a lending 235 00:08:36,320 --> 00:08:42,159 decision based on that. So, so they they 236 00:08:40,159 --> 00:08:44,800 work really hard. They put a lot of, you 237 00:08:42,159 --> 00:08:46,640 know, um work into making sure that that 238 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,240 basically can happen. And then there's 239 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,080 companies that, you know, they're a 240 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,920 little aggressive. I would say Softron 241 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,360 in the ecosystem is by far the most 242 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,240 aggressive, right? We're just like a 243 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:58,640 team of security researchers and hackers 244 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,640 and you know people like working on this 245 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,720 sort of stuff that that are making sure 246 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,320 users can get their data whether whether 247 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,080 somebody likes it or not. So I think 248 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,519 we're we're the most extreme. We're the 249 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:11,519 most aggressive. And you know, obviously 250 00:09:09,519 --> 00:09:12,880 the the concerns around security and 251 00:09:11,519 --> 00:09:14,560 privacy and all that stuff we take 252 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:15,920 really seriously, but that's really not 253 00:09:14,560 --> 00:09:17,760 the issue, right? We're Sock 2 254 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,480 compliant. We follow the rules. We 255 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:23,279 follow the regulations in a uh in any 256 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:25,200 given region, of course. But uh but what 257 00:09:23,279 --> 00:09:26,959 we really do is when somebody tries to 258 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,640 close the door on you, when it's your 259 00:09:26,959 --> 00:09:30,560 data and you want to pull it out and use 260 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,000 it for something else, we kick in the 261 00:09:30,560 --> 00:09:34,000 door. 262 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,640 >> Interesting. That is a that is a really 263 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:39,680 good analogy and explain it like I'm 264 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:41,680 five. So I totally get that. And how how 265 00:09:39,680 --> 00:09:43,760 difficult was it to kick down the door? 266 00:09:41,680 --> 00:09:45,600 Like initially it must have been a big 267 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:48,560 uphill battle. 268 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:51,519 >> Yeah, it was. I mean back in 2016 it 269 00:09:48,560 --> 00:09:53,040 wasn't as bad. Most of the most of the 270 00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:56,000 stuff that you know let's say that 271 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:58,080 you're evil bank you know evil bank um 272 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:00,480 evil bank corp. Most of the stuff they 273 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:03,920 were doing at that point was kind of 274 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,440 benign. like they would uh Yodi for 275 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,000 example, they would write screen 276 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,680 scraping scripts that were hardcoded and 277 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,360 a lot of the providers today still do 278 00:10:09,680 --> 00:10:12,560 this actually and that's why a lot of 279 00:10:11,360 --> 00:10:14,000 you know if you if you've tried to 280 00:10:12,560 --> 00:10:15,279 connect your bank you probably you know 281 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,440 there's a reasonable chance you weren't 282 00:10:15,279 --> 00:10:18,560 happy about the user experience but uh 283 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,240 but what they would do is they would 284 00:10:18,560 --> 00:10:22,240 just pointlessly change their website 285 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,079 right they would just like we won't call 286 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:26,000 it the login button we'll call it the 287 00:10:24,079 --> 00:10:28,480 jump in button or something you know 288 00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:31,040 kind of random in the HTML break and if 289 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:33,200 what you were doing Yeah. Exactly. 290 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:36,000 Exactly. So just annoying things that 291 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:37,680 would break the the screen scrapers and 292 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:39,680 because from the very beginning we were 293 00:10:37,680 --> 00:10:42,399 using like computer vision and natural 294 00:10:39,680 --> 00:10:44,640 language processing and machine learning 295 00:10:42,399 --> 00:10:45,920 to do all of this. We were actually 296 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:48,079 that's that's why we were able to 297 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,079 support like 6,000 which was comparable 298 00:10:48,079 --> 00:10:51,920 with Plaid at the time. Like on day one 299 00:10:50,079 --> 00:10:53,760 we supported 6,000 banks and credit 300 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,079 unions. I think Plaid still claims 301 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:57,680 around 7,000 or something like that. But 302 00:10:56,079 --> 00:11:00,240 uh yeah at this point we support all of 303 00:10:57,680 --> 00:11:02,480 them. So there's over 14,000 banks and 304 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,920 credit unions in the US and we're the 305 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,160 only ones that support all of them 306 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:08,320 because it's just too expensive to 307 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,920 support these small connections if you 308 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:12,000 have technology that requires that you 309 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:13,760 write code for it. So you know there's a 310 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,600 there's a tiny bank in the Midwest and 311 00:11:13,760 --> 00:11:17,120 it's got like 14 users on it or 312 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,200 something that want to connect, you 313 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:21,839 know, a particular app. Very hard to 314 00:11:19,200 --> 00:11:24,240 make money writing code specifically for 315 00:11:21,839 --> 00:11:27,040 that. It's just doesn't work out. So 316 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:29,040 really AI and this is why we decided to 317 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,320 go after AI when it was still unclear 318 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,000 whether it was going to work. I think 319 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,120 now everybody would say oh obviously 320 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,800 that's the right solution to the 321 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,440 problem. But back then it was it was 322 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:38,959 quite a risk quite a leap. But uh but 323 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,839 yeah it's really the only way to make 324 00:11:38,959 --> 00:11:43,760 money uh or make it at all economical 325 00:11:41,839 --> 00:11:46,079 and also the only way to make it at all 326 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,920 reliable to connect to all those 327 00:11:46,079 --> 00:11:49,279 disparate connections. And that's just 328 00:11:47,920 --> 00:11:51,519 banks and credit unions. At this point, 329 00:11:49,279 --> 00:11:53,200 we support over 60,000 total connections 330 00:11:51,519 --> 00:11:56,560 and we've got a couple dozen data 331 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:58,240 scientists. Um, when Yodi supported, I 332 00:11:56,560 --> 00:12:00,800 don't know, 5,000 or something, I think 333 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,880 they had 2,000 employees. So, our our uh 334 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,880 our connection to employee ratio is is 335 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:09,200 pretty good. 336 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:12,320 >> So, how exactly does AI help here? 337 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:13,680 >> Yeah. So, so there's basically three, 338 00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:16,079 let's say, approaches that you could 339 00:12:13,680 --> 00:12:18,480 take. Let's say you want to connect to, 340 00:12:16,079 --> 00:12:20,800 you know, Podunk Bank in the Midwest. 341 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:22,880 You can either call them and ask for 342 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,079 access to an API and if there's an API 343 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:26,399 and they'll give it to you for free, 344 00:12:24,079 --> 00:12:27,680 then that's that's kind of nice. But the 345 00:12:26,399 --> 00:12:30,480 problem with that is that they're going 346 00:12:27,680 --> 00:12:32,399 to change that API, right? So if you 347 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:35,120 have a very small number of users, even 348 00:12:32,399 --> 00:12:37,200 an API is like too difficult to 349 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,920 maintain, right? You you can't afford to 350 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:41,519 put an engineer on that API for even 351 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:43,200 three hours a year, right? Because you 352 00:12:41,519 --> 00:12:45,440 only have 14 users and you're making 353 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,680 like 10 cents a month per user, right? 354 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,440 So the economics don't work out. But 355 00:12:47,680 --> 00:12:51,279 that is that is one option and that is 356 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:53,200 the option that everybody thinks oh you 357 00:12:51,279 --> 00:12:55,680 definitely want that until they really 358 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:58,320 think about the number of you know the 359 00:12:55,680 --> 00:13:00,480 potential connections and how how little 360 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:02,079 economic value relatively speaking there 361 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:03,680 is right I mean there might be $10 a 362 00:13:02,079 --> 00:13:06,800 year worth of value connecting to this 363 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:08,720 tiny little bank individually that that 364 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,560 is not enough money to put an engineer 365 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:12,720 on the job for 10 minutes right to 366 00:13:10,560 --> 00:13:14,560 connect to that API let alone 367 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,480 >> connect to it and then maintain it but 368 00:13:14,560 --> 00:13:17,680 also it doesn't make sense for them to 369 00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:19,760 do it so they probably haven't even 370 00:13:17,680 --> 00:13:22,880 built the API anyway. So you don't even 371 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:25,360 have to wonder about the option. Um but 372 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:27,040 so that's option that's like the what 373 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:29,600 every engineer would think. Okay, that's 374 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,279 the solution. And then the next solution 375 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:33,200 would be okay, I guess we're going to 376 00:13:31,279 --> 00:13:35,360 screen scrape it. So, we're going to use 377 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:38,320 some open- source tools and we're going 378 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,480 to just say, okay, click on this button 379 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,320 or maybe based on the HTML tag or 380 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,320 something, we'll hardcode click on this 381 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:46,079 button effectively and then put in the 382 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:47,680 user's password and then log in and then 383 00:13:46,079 --> 00:13:50,160 click here and then copy and paste 384 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:52,560 essentially this value out. Um, and so 385 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:54,880 that's how it it I would say most of the 386 00:13:52,560 --> 00:13:57,199 connections like if you connect to a 387 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,959 bank in the US and Canada, chances are 388 00:13:57,199 --> 00:14:01,519 if it's one of the big banks, maybe not, 389 00:13:58,959 --> 00:14:03,279 but uh but if you have uh you know a 390 00:14:01,519 --> 00:14:04,959 midsize bank, there's a really good 391 00:14:03,279 --> 00:14:07,440 chance that what you're connecting to is 392 00:14:04,959 --> 00:14:10,079 doing that. It's still even in 2026, 393 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:12,240 it's hardcoded, super brittle screen 394 00:14:10,079 --> 00:14:14,880 scraping. And the problem with that is 395 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:17,440 also if well there's two problems. one 396 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,920 is you can do it without without getting 397 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:21,839 API access, right? So a new startup and 398 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:25,360 you want to do home loans or something, 399 00:14:21,839 --> 00:14:26,880 it's a viable option. Whereas an API, if 400 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:28,560 even if it does exist, they're probably 401 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:31,279 not going to give you access to it. So 402 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,279 you can make it work, but it is like the 403 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,680 epitome of tech debt, right? Like as 404 00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:37,440 soon as you write that code, uh there 405 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,800 it's just a ticking time bomb before it 406 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,079 breaks and it's probably not going to be 407 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:42,000 reliable and it's going to be really 408 00:14:40,079 --> 00:14:43,839 slow. And so that was the whole 409 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,600 ecosystem. That was the full spectrum of 410 00:14:43,839 --> 00:14:47,920 technology available to solve this 411 00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:52,240 problem until Softron started in in 412 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:55,440 2016. And so where AI comes in is 413 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:57,199 saying, okay, you know, if if we can 414 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,199 have a car that can drive down the road 415 00:14:57,199 --> 00:15:01,199 and it can look at a stop sign and it 416 00:14:59,199 --> 00:15:04,399 could use image recognition and go, hey, 417 00:15:01,199 --> 00:15:06,800 that's a stop sign. Um, why can't we use 418 00:15:04,399 --> 00:15:08,959 uh computer vision and image recognition 419 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:11,279 to look at the website with human eyes 420 00:15:08,959 --> 00:15:13,600 and say, "Okay, that's a login button." 421 00:15:11,279 --> 00:15:15,120 Right? Um, and the reason that that 422 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,839 works is the same reason it works for 423 00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:19,760 you and me. Because even if they change 424 00:15:17,839 --> 00:15:21,519 thing and move things around and rename 425 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,680 things or whatever, essentially, if a 426 00:15:21,519 --> 00:15:25,199 human can figure it out, then an AI 427 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:26,720 could probably figure it out when it's a 428 00:15:25,199 --> 00:15:28,480 matter of like finding which button do 429 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:29,839 you click to log in. So, yeah, that's 430 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:31,600 that's where AI comes in. 431 00:15:29,839 --> 00:15:34,000 >> This this reminds me of the white 432 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:37,040 hacker, black hacker type of uh 433 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:39,680 struggle, push and pull, you know. 434 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:41,600 >> Yeah. Yeah, it totally is. Yeah. Yeah. A 435 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,120 lot of a lot of the guys at Softron have 436 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,920 always considered themselves like white 437 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,760 hat hackers. So um so it was kind of 438 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:49,519 inevitable we ended up in some niche 439 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,600 like this once we once we moved from 440 00:15:49,519 --> 00:15:53,920 Microsoft to FinTech 441 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:58,560 >> and okay so let's talk about like 442 00:15:53,920 --> 00:16:00,160 because you know um the consumer level 443 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,160 wants to know how this type of 444 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,560 technology can benefit them. What can 445 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:07,040 you realistically do with the technology 446 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:09,600 that could help myself, my wife and I 447 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,880 who manage a household, the the regular 448 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,800 person who wants to look at their 449 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,639 finances? What what can happen here? 450 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,720 >> Yeah, totally. So, we actually did an 451 00:16:14,639 --> 00:16:18,480 integration with Chad GPT that was super 452 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:21,040 cool. I don't remember if I sent that to 453 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:24,240 you or not, but my co-founder connected 454 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:26,399 Softron to Chad GPT and basically 455 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,720 immediately had like a great financial 456 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:30,320 adviser because she was able to say 457 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,320 stuff like, "Am I spending more money 458 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,160 than the average person in Seattle? How 459 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:36,639 am I doing on my finances? Does it seem 460 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:39,120 like I'm just really lazy? What about 461 00:16:36,639 --> 00:16:41,519 like subscriptions? Like, am I spending 462 00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:43,360 more on the Netflix, the Hulu's, all 463 00:16:41,519 --> 00:16:45,199 that kind of, you know, brain rot 464 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,199 content? Am I spending more on that than 465 00:16:45,199 --> 00:16:49,440 the average person in Seattle or you 466 00:16:47,199 --> 00:16:51,199 know what? Um, and what she ended up 467 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:52,800 finding out was I mean it it wasn't a 468 00:16:51,199 --> 00:16:54,639 bad thing, but it was interesting. She 469 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,560 found out that she spends something like 470 00:16:54,639 --> 00:16:58,560 seven times more on fruits and 471 00:16:56,560 --> 00:17:00,959 vegetables than the average person in 472 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:02,399 Seattle in her neighborhood. Um, and you 473 00:17:00,959 --> 00:17:04,400 know, she didn't change that. She was 474 00:17:02,399 --> 00:17:06,640 she was happy with that. Uh, cuz she 475 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:08,240 thinks that's important. But um, but 476 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:10,240 that's the sort of stuff that you're not 477 00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:12,559 going to get really without AI, right? 478 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,559 Like those that's just a fun insight. 479 00:17:12,559 --> 00:17:16,480 But if she was spending a lot more on 480 00:17:14,559 --> 00:17:18,720 her cars than the average person at her 481 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,720 income level in in Seattle, it would be 482 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,120 nice for her to know that, right? Or if 483 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,959 she was particularly bad at negotiating, 484 00:17:23,120 --> 00:17:26,640 you know, her home loan and she was 485 00:17:24,959 --> 00:17:27,919 paying way more in interest payments 486 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,720 than the average person in the 487 00:17:27,919 --> 00:17:30,880 neighborhood. 488 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:32,960 >> It's pretty hard to like I've never had 489 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,240 a financial advisor, you know, or my 490 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,240 accountant look through and give me 491 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,919 those sort of insights because it's like 492 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,120 it's very deep, right? It's like, oh, 493 00:17:37,919 --> 00:17:40,799 what's your monthly payment on your 494 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:43,840 house? Yeah, that's about right. Right. 495 00:17:40,799 --> 00:17:46,080 But who's going to be like so diligent 496 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,919 to dig through all the way to go? Well, 497 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:51,200 actually, you know what? You're spending 498 00:17:47,919 --> 00:17:52,880 more on your homeowner's insurance than 499 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,320 than you should. Like, how many 500 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,640 thousands of dollars would you have to 501 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:58,640 spend to have a a person manually figure 502 00:17:56,640 --> 00:18:00,480 that out for you? Probably more than 503 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:02,720 you're you're overspending on homeowners 504 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:05,039 insurance, right? But AI can dig through 505 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,799 that and find those really obscure 506 00:18:05,039 --> 00:18:08,080 little tidbits that, you know, if 507 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:09,200 nothing else, it gives you peace of mind 508 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,039 that you're not doing anything 509 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,440 irresponsible. 510 00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:15,360 This reminds me of like you hire an 511 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,799 accountant, you hire a financial 512 00:18:15,360 --> 00:18:21,440 advisor. If they got together, sat in a 513 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:23,039 room for a day or two, and they came 514 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:24,480 back with recommendations, this is what 515 00:18:23,039 --> 00:18:26,320 you're explaining pretty much. 516 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,760 >> Right. Right. But it would take them 517 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:29,760 weeks, right? They would they would have 518 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,559 to like really go through all of your 519 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:34,320 stuff. But after they had gone through a 520 00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:36,400 bunch of other people's stuff, like your 521 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:39,120 your accountant off the top of his head 522 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:42,880 does not know what the average person 523 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:44,320 that makes, you know, 350,000 a year in 524 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:45,919 this particular neighborhood of 525 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,280 Belleview is spending on homeowners 526 00:18:45,919 --> 00:18:50,640 insurance. He just doesn't have that 527 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:53,360 data to begin with. Like that's why AI 528 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:55,280 is so cool. Like there is a lot of 529 00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:58,240 reasonable fear, I think. like it's it's 530 00:18:55,280 --> 00:19:00,160 a very cool technology and it's it's 531 00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:02,559 important and so you are going to have 532 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,480 like the leite sort of response but I 533 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:07,120 think I think it's really easy to forget 534 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:09,600 like the universe is really only created 535 00:19:07,120 --> 00:19:12,720 with like ideas and atoms right and 536 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:14,640 we're constantly so short on ideas right 537 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:16,720 your kid starts getting sick he has a 538 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:19,440 fever you're like basically just 539 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,520 starving to death of data all the time 540 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,520 even in 2026 even with the internet and 541 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:25,840 all that like that is a really cool 542 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:27,280 problem that AI and I can solve. We we 543 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,960 you know, we'll still be starving to 544 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:31,760 death of data, you know, when we're on 545 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:33,520 Mars because if you if if you were 546 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,200 omnipotent, right, you would have all of 547 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:38,240 the problem solved. So, it's not going 548 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,400 to go away. But, but being able to be 10 549 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,039 times or 100 times or a thousand times 550 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:45,840 more data rich in your life and 551 00:19:43,039 --> 00:19:47,600 decision-m is a it's a freaking amazing 552 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,520 superpower. Like, it's definitely going 553 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:51,600 to be good. 554 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:55,120 >> So, let's let's say a benefit out of 555 00:19:51,600 --> 00:19:57,919 this was your partner. You you said that 556 00:19:55,120 --> 00:19:59,840 she knew knows that she spends what 557 00:19:57,919 --> 00:20:01,600 three to five times more on fruit. 558 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,679 >> I think it was like seven times. It was 559 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,200 like seven times more than the And it 560 00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:07,919 was it was cool cuz it wasn't just she 561 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,000 spends seven times more. It was like for 562 00:20:07,919 --> 00:20:11,600 her neighborhood, right? Because you 563 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,200 know if you're like, you know, if you're 564 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,720 a trucker or something, you're probably 565 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,480 not eating very well. You're not 566 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,640 spending spending a lot on fruits and 567 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,240 vegetables, right? But if you're, you 568 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:21,840 know, if you work for like Amazon or 569 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:24,640 something and you're in like some posh 570 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,559 neighborhood, that's the like that's the 571 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:28,799 level of fidelity that you really need 572 00:20:26,559 --> 00:20:30,559 for it to be at all interesting, right? 573 00:20:28,799 --> 00:20:32,559 Like, are you overweight? Well, am I 574 00:20:30,559 --> 00:20:35,360 overweight for what? For somebody that, 575 00:20:32,559 --> 00:20:37,039 you know, is a uh is a, you know, 576 00:20:35,360 --> 00:20:39,600 55year-old 577 00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:42,080 man that's a trucker that, you know, 578 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:44,720 works in like, you know, Chicago or 579 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,240 something like that. That is a gonna be 580 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:48,480 a totally different answer than if 581 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,720 you're like, you know, like in Spain or 582 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:53,280 something and you're like a 22-year-old, 583 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,520 uh, you know, that surfs every day like 584 00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:57,200 all the context, which is data, right, 585 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,880 is really important to any question that 586 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,679 you ask. 587 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:04,240 >> Well, so my my entrepreneurial mind is 588 00:21:01,679 --> 00:21:06,480 going and it's like, well, if I knew 589 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:08,960 that there was a cluster of people that 590 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:10,960 se spend seven times more on fruit and 591 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,600 vegetables in a certain area, that could 592 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:13,520 be useful. 593 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,880 >> Very interesting. That's very 594 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,440 interesting. I hadn't even thought of 595 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:19,600 that. But yeah, absolutely. Like if you 596 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:22,880 could find if you could find like 10,000 597 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:25,679 of my co-founders around the country and 598 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:28,320 say, "Hey, you are a fruit freak." Like 599 00:21:25,679 --> 00:21:28,720 I I service fruit freaks. 600 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,280 >> Yeah. 601 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,080 >> You know, 602 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:34,320 >> and open up, you know, a an organic 603 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,400 fruit stand and vegetable stand right 604 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:36,880 next to their Well, you're all 605 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:38,400 distributing. 606 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,159 >> Yeah. You you can get her to sign up for 607 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,760 a subscription that nobody else would 608 00:21:40,159 --> 00:21:44,320 sign up for, right? like two crates a 609 00:21:41,760 --> 00:21:46,960 day or something or subscription. 610 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,280 >> Yeah, that's a really good point, man. 611 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:50,400 >> Yeah. 612 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:51,919 >> And speaking of being distributed, you 613 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,520 the last time I talked to you, you you 614 00:21:51,919 --> 00:21:55,280 guys were based out of Netherlands. Is 615 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:58,000 that still true? 616 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,640 >> Yeah. So, our our whole team is pretty 617 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,400 scattered. Um, so we were all the last 618 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:07,280 time we were all together was probably 619 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:11,200 in like 20 2012. Um, 620 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:13,120 oh wow. Yeah. Like 14 years ago. Um, and 621 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,919 that's when we were all at Microsoft at 622 00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:18,640 the Microsoft campus. Um, and so after 623 00:22:15,919 --> 00:22:20,240 that, uh, after that a lot of us, you 624 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:22,640 know, there there were folks from like 625 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:24,720 Australia, New Zealand. Um, we ended up 626 00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,720 selling the company to a New Zealand 627 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:29,120 company and so some folks moved there. 628 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:31,200 Um, and then uh, yeah, so we we've kind 629 00:22:29,120 --> 00:22:32,640 of we're all over the place now. But 630 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:35,039 yeah, I think we were pretty early on 631 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:37,120 the remote work thing. you know, 2014, 632 00:22:35,039 --> 00:22:39,600 you know, way before CO, it it just made 633 00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:41,840 a lot of sense to us when I was running 634 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:44,000 the team in San Francisco, you know, we 635 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,840 had, I don't know, 150 engineers or 636 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,080 something that reported up to me. I had 637 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:50,320 people that would spend 3 or 4 hours 638 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:53,039 each direction in their car. Uh, and it 639 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,960 made no sense. I mean, I think I think 640 00:22:53,039 --> 00:22:58,080 maybe the record was like 6 hours a day 641 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,840 of commute time. And I was spending 642 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,679 I was in Seattle before this and had 643 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:03,600 like no commute, right? because I lived 644 00:23:01,679 --> 00:23:05,360 in in Kirkland and I drove to Redmond. 645 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,760 It was like very very short, like 20 646 00:23:05,360 --> 00:23:10,000 minutes, but I think my commute was like 647 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:12,960 on average two hours when I was in the 648 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:14,480 Bay Area and I, you know, had a super 649 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:17,440 short commute compared to a lot of 650 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:19,520 people. So, yeah. So we we were already 651 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:21,760 remote, but when we got acquired, it was 652 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,600 such a stark difference between kind of 653 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:26,640 the old school way of doing business and 654 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:28,720 the amount of insane waste in that and 655 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,799 then our team that was remote and just 656 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:33,600 able to, you know, crank and focus for 657 00:23:30,799 --> 00:23:35,679 8, 10, 14 hours a day and not not be 658 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,280 bothered. 659 00:23:35,679 --> 00:23:38,880 Yeah, it's it really comes to a point 660 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,919 that when you're actually delivering 661 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,000 work that it becomes a productivity hack 662 00:23:41,919 --> 00:23:46,559 to be in somewhere that's very 663 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,799 comfortable to you and and uh your 664 00:23:46,559 --> 00:23:51,280 lifestyle with your family and 665 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,640 >> you know you can deliver a lot better in 666 00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,880 that way. 667 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,320 >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I think the argument 668 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,080 has always been that this doesn't work 669 00:23:56,320 --> 00:24:00,559 for everybody, right? And you need some 670 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:02,159 people that are um that are only 671 00:24:00,559 --> 00:24:04,480 motivated when they're in an office 672 00:24:02,159 --> 00:24:06,480 around other people. But I don't I don't 673 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,919 really think that's true. I think that I 674 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,679 think those guys that don't do any work 675 00:24:07,919 --> 00:24:11,360 when they're at home also don't do any 676 00:24:09,679 --> 00:24:12,880 work in the office. It's just much 677 00:24:11,360 --> 00:24:15,120 easier to make it look like you're doing 678 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,640 work in the office. Like you stand up, 679 00:24:15,120 --> 00:24:18,400 you stretch, you have a meeting, you go 680 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,559 grab some coffee. Like we we all know 681 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:23,279 people that can do that for 40 hours a 682 00:24:20,559 --> 00:24:24,640 week and and work for like seven. So I 683 00:24:23,279 --> 00:24:26,159 don't [clears throat] know. A lot of it 684 00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,640 was weird watching everybody kind of 685 00:24:26,159 --> 00:24:30,400 realize how stupid it was to commute if 686 00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:32,400 you have a white collar job. I would 687 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,840 take my laptop and I know a lot I know 688 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,080 everybody can relate with this, right? 689 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,559 You like you pick your laptop up off of 690 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:40,799 your desk, you jump on you jump in a 691 00:24:38,559 --> 00:24:42,480 car, you jump in the train, you jump, 692 00:24:40,799 --> 00:24:44,000 you know, you walk for a few blocks in 693 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:46,960 the financial district in the Bay Area 694 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:48,960 or whatever, you work and then you grab 695 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,320 your like you sit your laptop on the 696 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,360 desk, you work on it, then you pick it 697 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,960 up at the end of the day and you bring 698 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:55,360 it home and you put it back on your 699 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,960 desk. It's like, wait a minute. I all of 700 00:24:55,360 --> 00:24:59,919 my interactions, even when I'm in the 701 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:01,679 office, uh, were almost all online, 702 00:24:59,919 --> 00:25:04,320 right? So, it really didn't make any 703 00:25:01,679 --> 00:25:06,159 sense at all. And it was weird to see co 704 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,320 hit and then everybody have a lot of the 705 00:25:06,159 --> 00:25:10,559 same realizations. But what was really 706 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,919 weird was seeing it flip back where 707 00:25:10,559 --> 00:25:13,679 everybody's like, "Oh, now we got to be 708 00:25:11,919 --> 00:25:15,440 in the office." Like Google had this 709 00:25:13,679 --> 00:25:17,360 revelation that you needed to be back in 710 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:20,159 the office. It it definitely makes me 711 00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:22,559 wonder how much of our economy is fake 712 00:25:20,159 --> 00:25:24,480 daycare for adults, right? uh where we 713 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:26,240 know a lot of people aren't working, but 714 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,919 there's there's some kind of Ponzi or 715 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,200 something that's driving this or you 716 00:25:27,919 --> 00:25:31,760 have to have a certain number of people 717 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,120 or uh I I I don't know what the story 718 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,240 is, but it's definitely not about 719 00:25:33,120 --> 00:25:36,720 productivity. 720 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:40,080 >> Well, there's also the part where the 721 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:41,760 the commercial office owners need to 722 00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,760 have their offices filled because that's 723 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,840 an issue over here in Ontario, Canada. 724 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:48,000 You know, they mandated people back to 725 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:49,919 office because of this reason. It's it's 726 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,679 interesting. So, who who's working for 727 00:25:49,919 --> 00:25:53,679 who here, right? 728 00:25:51,679 --> 00:25:56,720 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's very 729 00:25:53,679 --> 00:25:58,240 dystopian. Like your your your uh what's 730 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,159 your purpose in life? It's to make sure 731 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,840 that this office is full. Why do we need 732 00:26:00,159 --> 00:26:03,760 the office full? Cuz because our whole 733 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:04,880 economy is tied up in this thing. It's 734 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:08,159 pretty 735 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:10,799 >> Yeah. But I do I do see the benefit like 736 00:26:08,159 --> 00:26:12,480 with everything going AI with everything 737 00:26:10,799 --> 00:26:15,679 going digital and has been going 738 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,480 digital. There's this like there's this 739 00:26:15,679 --> 00:26:20,400 theory that I have and observation that 740 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:22,159 I've had. It's like a lot of people want 741 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,880 to do more stuff in real life. That 742 00:26:22,159 --> 00:26:27,520 happened after co but I that's going to 743 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:30,960 accelerate even more with with AI. It's 744 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:33,919 like people are just fed up with 745 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:36,400 >> I guess digitization in a way. Do you 746 00:26:33,919 --> 00:26:39,440 feel that at all? 747 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:42,240 >> Not really. I I think what we did is 748 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:44,320 pretty unique too in that like you know 749 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:46,080 I had friends and family and then I had 750 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:48,320 work people and I really like the work 751 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:50,000 people right like I have my co-founder 752 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,440 and I have known each other for like 20 753 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,360 years now we have a really great 754 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,760 relationship we understand each other 755 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,360 and respect each other but we don't have 756 00:26:55,760 --> 00:27:00,880 to get together in person all the time 757 00:26:57,360 --> 00:27:03,200 because we we we have our own spouses 758 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,279 like like we don't we don't we don't 759 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,799 have a lot of time that we spend 760 00:27:05,279 --> 00:27:08,480 together just talking about our feelings 761 00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:10,400 ings or you know how stressful the 762 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,799 situation is, we just freaking work. 763 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:14,640 Like I've got work to deliver and she 764 00:27:12,799 --> 00:27:16,400 wants to know how it how it's going. 765 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520 She's got work. I want to know how it's 766 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,440 going. And 767 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:20,960 >> and then when we have extra time, we 768 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,039 want to spend it with our kids, right? 769 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:24,640 Like I I want to spend it with my kids. 770 00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:25,440 She wants to spend it with her kid, her 771 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:27,039 husband. 772 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,799 >> And it just seems to work really well 773 00:27:27,039 --> 00:27:30,559 like that. And and that's the kind of 774 00:27:28,799 --> 00:27:32,159 like there's there's other people in the 775 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:33,679 company. I'll go for months and not talk 776 00:27:32,159 --> 00:27:35,600 to them. But but they know I care about 777 00:27:33,679 --> 00:27:37,440 them. like I've I've worked really hard 778 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,039 to help them be successful in their 779 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,559 careers, but I don't need to I don't 780 00:27:39,039 --> 00:27:42,559 need to get like that emotional 781 00:27:40,559 --> 00:27:45,760 connection online, you know, with 782 00:27:42,559 --> 00:27:47,600 somebody that's in in New Zealand 783 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,440 because I'm I'm surrounded by like 784 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,960 friends and family that that are 785 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,200 separate from work. And I think that's 786 00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,880 kind of a healthy a healthy situation. I 787 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,960 I mean, I do have kids that I work with 788 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,480 now that are all software engineers. And 789 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,080 so that's cool, too. I mean, it's nice 790 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,760 to have that, but I think I don't think 791 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:04,320 you have to get it all from the same 792 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:07,039 place. And I think work can be highly 793 00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:08,880 remote, highly highly optimized for just 794 00:28:07,039 --> 00:28:11,520 just deliverables. 795 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,919 >> I I think your company is probably an 796 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:16,080 exceptional company in in that regard 797 00:28:13,919 --> 00:28:18,480 where highly performant. The 798 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,960 expectations are probably laid out very 799 00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,440 clearly and uh you guys just deliver and 800 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:26,480 and that's that's how I would run a 801 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:29,200 company. So So kudos on that. 802 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:30,799 >> Yeah, it's I mean it is more fun too. I 803 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,640 really hated like one of the things that 804 00:28:30,799 --> 00:28:33,919 I really hated about Microsoft there was 805 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,760 a ton of things that I loved about it. 806 00:28:33,919 --> 00:28:37,760 It was a super cool company back then. I 807 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:41,279 don't think it's as cool as it was, you 808 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:43,679 know, in uh in 2015, but you still had 809 00:28:41,279 --> 00:28:46,159 people that were like they were just 810 00:28:43,679 --> 00:28:48,720 tired or they had worked like we we had 811 00:28:46,159 --> 00:28:50,159 this thing called uh war room. Um 812 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,679 basically everybody in the company was 813 00:28:50,159 --> 00:28:53,440 afraid to go to it because it was so 814 00:28:51,679 --> 00:28:55,279 stressful. It was like 20 people in the 815 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:56,880 room and we just made all the decisions 816 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:59,440 about what was going to go in Windows 817 00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,159 and what wasn't. And so if you had a bug 818 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,200 or you had a feature that had a bug, you 819 00:29:02,159 --> 00:29:04,960 could have been working on that thing 820 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,840 for like two or three or four or five 821 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:10,080 years and show up to Warroom Room and 822 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,120 they would say, "Sorry, it's not going 823 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,559 in this release." And you'd be like, 824 00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:14,640 "All right, well, I I guess I'm not 825 00:29:12,559 --> 00:29:17,440 getting into Windows XP. Maybe I can get 826 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:19,120 in in 4 years." So very intense and 827 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,960 stressful and lots of real-time 828 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:22,720 decisions being made. And I mean, there 829 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,720 were people that worked there that once 830 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,320 we did release something like Windows, 831 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,880 like they were just burned out. like 832 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,279 they needed like months to recover from 833 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:32,799 the stress and and a lot of times they 834 00:29:31,279 --> 00:29:34,320 would still have to show up, you know, 835 00:29:32,799 --> 00:29:35,440 and be seen around the coffee room, but 836 00:29:34,320 --> 00:29:36,960 it was kind of understood. You're not 837 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,320 getting any work out of that guy cuz we 838 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,240 almost killed him, right? Like give him 839 00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,600 a few months to recover, you know, at 840 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,440 least. 841 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,159 >> And it's just that that sort of stuff is 842 00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,240 really annoying. Like like let the guy 843 00:29:46,159 --> 00:29:49,919 stay home and focus on his kids for a 844 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,159 while. Like he's earned it. But you 845 00:29:49,919 --> 00:29:54,240 still have to like put in uh you know 846 00:29:52,159 --> 00:29:56,559 the the facetime in the office and it's 847 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,960 just it's just totally pointless. So I 848 00:29:56,559 --> 00:30:01,039 think a lot of that stuff is like boomer 849 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:03,279 World War II generation sort of 850 00:30:01,039 --> 00:30:05,760 formality that it's just taking us a 851 00:30:03,279 --> 00:30:07,840 long time to cut loose. Uh but I don't 852 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,600 think you know nobody thinks in 200 853 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,120 years people are going to be like you 854 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:14,480 know commuting in the office just to 855 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:16,159 have facetime and and uh um and you know 856 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,480 when they clearly don't have the energy 857 00:30:16,159 --> 00:30:21,440 to do any real work anyway. 858 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:24,159 >> Okay. So let's say for real work, real 859 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,760 productivity, this model works. What 860 00:30:24,159 --> 00:30:28,240 about and I'm just going to flip it over 861 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,880 to like where people make connections 862 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:33,360 and you know I'm in bisdev and sales and 863 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,120 I get that I get that sort of you know 864 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,279 you can't really do that over the 865 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:40,880 internet as much as you could do going 866 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:43,039 to a event or or serendipitously 867 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:47,039 meeting somebody that becomes a business 868 00:30:43,039 --> 00:30:48,640 partner at an event and meetup. Um I and 869 00:30:47,039 --> 00:30:49,840 I think that I don't think that part is 870 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:51,760 going to go away. You need to shake 871 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:54,159 hands. You need to talk to people. You 872 00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,000 need to attend events. And I do see that 873 00:30:54,159 --> 00:30:57,600 totally go away still going. There's a 874 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,080 lot 875 00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:01,440 >> No, you really 876 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,200 >> Not only do I think it's going to go 877 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,880 away, I think like that whole career 878 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:09,600 field of sales and marketing is fake and 879 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:12,000 it existed for a short period of time in 880 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,840 history where we had a lot of products 881 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:16,640 and we just had terrible communication 882 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,720 mediums. And so, you know, a big chunk 883 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:21,440 of Microsoft, for example, was 884 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:23,440 enterprise sales guys. Um, and you think 885 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,039 about the absurdity of this. Like, we 886 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:27,200 had a lot of people at Microsoft that 887 00:31:25,039 --> 00:31:30,399 would just go to other companies and try 888 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,159 to sell them Windows. What? Like maybe 889 00:31:30,399 --> 00:31:34,399 maybe in the early days of Microsoft 890 00:31:32,159 --> 00:31:36,880 that made sense. And it it was necessary 891 00:31:34,399 --> 00:31:38,880 because of the momentum, right? This is 892 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,880 how people did procurement. This is how 893 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,399 people bought services. They decided 894 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,120 whether they were going to buy 10,000 895 00:31:42,399 --> 00:31:46,880 Windows PCs based on the glint in the 896 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,960 eye of the sales guy that talked to them 897 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,159 and whether he had a firm handshake. 898 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,600 It's totally ridiculous. And anybody I 899 00:31:52,159 --> 00:31:55,840 would say that's in sales and marketing 900 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,640 right now is just they're they're just 901 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:01,039 in a dying industry and AI is going to 902 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,279 completely eliminate your function. Your 903 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:05,120 whole job is just to communicate from 904 00:32:03,279 --> 00:32:07,679 the product team what's good about this 905 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:10,000 product to a customer why they should 906 00:32:07,679 --> 00:32:11,919 want the product. You're totally 907 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:14,080 automated out of a job already. You just 908 00:32:11,919 --> 00:32:15,919 don't know it yet. Because if I'm 909 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,080 looking for a car or I'm looking for a 910 00:32:15,919 --> 00:32:20,799 SAS product or I'm looking for whatever. 911 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:24,159 I'm gonna ask Chat Jippy or I'm going to 912 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:26,399 ask Grock or I'm going to ask Anthropic, 913 00:32:24,159 --> 00:32:28,000 right? I'm not I'm probably not going to 914 00:32:26,399 --> 00:32:30,799 go to a conference and walk around 915 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,559 booths and hopefully fall in love with a 916 00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:33,440 sales guy that convinces me that this is 917 00:32:32,559 --> 00:32:35,600 great. 918 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:37,120 >> And I I spent a lot of my career in 919 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:39,760 sales. 920 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:41,600 >> Okay. I I I I really do love this 921 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,919 conversation. It's it's giving me food 922 00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:46,080 for thought and uh I love your 923 00:32:43,919 --> 00:32:48,320 perspective because it it's challenging 924 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:50,559 and uh talk talk more about like why do 925 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:53,440 you think events would go away? Like why 926 00:32:50,559 --> 00:32:55,679 let's say there was a financial data 927 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,240 event that was happening in Las Vegas. 928 00:32:55,679 --> 00:32:58,399 Why would you 929 00:32:56,240 --> 00:33:00,480 >> Yeah. Like money 2020 like let's say 930 00:32:58,399 --> 00:33:02,000 that I'm a stockholder in money 2020 931 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,919 right now, right? Or like I'm one of the 932 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,240 founders of that thing. 933 00:33:03,919 --> 00:33:09,120 We we've gone to money 2020 a few times 934 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:11,039 and I think there is value in there has 935 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:12,640 been value in going to that. But if you 936 00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:15,919 actually just step back and think about 937 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,919 what this is, um you're physically going 938 00:33:15,919 --> 00:33:19,519 to a place and like walking around this 939 00:33:17,919 --> 00:33:21,760 hall, right? You're walking around this 940 00:33:19,519 --> 00:33:25,519 big huge room with all these companies 941 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:28,240 that set up booths. And this is a system 942 00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:29,679 that worked and started with mostly 943 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,840 physical products, right? these 944 00:33:29,679 --> 00:33:34,000 conferences and stuff like mostly 945 00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,840 physical things and mostly before the 946 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:38,399 internet existed, right? So, this is 947 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:40,240 clearly like a legacy mode of operating 948 00:33:38,399 --> 00:33:41,840 and and connecting with people. And you 949 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,840 think about the money that goes into 950 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:46,960 that, right? Like a lot of lot of the 951 00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:48,960 money that you spend being there as a 952 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,120 conference company, right? It's 953 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:53,679 basically like it's proof of bling, 954 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,600 right? Like if you spent $2 million and 955 00:33:53,679 --> 00:33:57,519 it's not hard to spend $2 million at one 956 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,279 of these these conferences like a money 957 00:33:57,519 --> 00:34:01,039 2020 if you get the right corner and all 958 00:33:59,279 --> 00:34:03,039 of that you could spend that and you 959 00:34:01,039 --> 00:34:04,559 probably have 20 employees there for the 960 00:34:03,039 --> 00:34:06,640 whole time, right? So you're talking 961 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:08,159 about, you know, no question you're 962 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,159 spending seven figures on this sort of 963 00:34:08,159 --> 00:34:12,320 thing. And a lot of what that does is it 964 00:34:10,159 --> 00:34:14,560 shows that you have money. So, you're 965 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:16,079 trying to display status to everybody 966 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:18,079 and you're trying to say, "Hey, if 967 00:34:16,079 --> 00:34:20,560 you're thinking about using a product in 968 00:34:18,079 --> 00:34:22,560 this category, let's start by looking at 969 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:24,480 the guys that have the biggest booths 970 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,159 and the mo have spent the most money 971 00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:28,800 because they're obviously successful." 972 00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:30,399 And if you use them, they're not flaky, 973 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,159 right? So, it's like it's brand 974 00:34:30,399 --> 00:34:34,240 recognition and it's sort of like that 975 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:36,399 first cut. So, you're making like these 976 00:34:34,240 --> 00:34:38,560 as a consumer of these products and 977 00:34:36,399 --> 00:34:41,599 services, you're making these very 978 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,280 chunky, very vague, like I think I 979 00:34:41,599 --> 00:34:46,639 should seriously talk to these guys 980 00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:49,359 because I can see that they just sent 981 00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:51,040 maybe $2 million on fire in a barrel. 982 00:34:49,359 --> 00:34:53,040 Like, that that's a big part of what's 983 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:56,159 happening. It's like imagine you showed 984 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:58,240 up and there's 50 companies and you know 985 00:34:56,159 --> 00:34:59,839 14 of them are relevant for the category 986 00:34:58,240 --> 00:35:01,839 that you might want to buy at and you're 987 00:34:59,839 --> 00:35:04,480 just looking at who burned the most 988 00:35:01,839 --> 00:35:05,920 money in this burn pit, right? 989 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,280 >> And and you just start with the one that 990 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,160 burned the most and you work your way 991 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:11,839 down. That's really a big part like I 992 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,960 would say that's the highest order bit 993 00:35:11,839 --> 00:35:14,880 for what's happening in that 994 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:16,960 environment. And when you look at it 995 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,320 like that, it's it's not very efficient. 996 00:35:16,960 --> 00:35:20,000 And then you think about all the money 997 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,400 that you spent to go there. Like you're 998 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:24,079 staying in probably an expensive hotel 999 00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,480 like the Bellagio or something, right? 1000 00:35:24,079 --> 00:35:27,839 Host these things. You had to fly in. 1001 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,839 You're going to have a handful of 1002 00:35:27,839 --> 00:35:32,000 conversations. And sales guys love it. 1003 00:35:29,839 --> 00:35:33,760 And you know, it's been good for for my 1004 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,599 business. It's been good for a lot of 1005 00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:38,880 people's businesses. But what I'm trying 1006 00:35:35,599 --> 00:35:40,480 to say is like just from a uh a data 1007 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:41,599 exchange perspective because that's 1008 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,599 ultimately what you're doing. You're 1009 00:35:41,599 --> 00:35:44,880 just trying to like figure out, have I 1010 00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:46,240 built the right product that somebody 1011 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,880 wants and how do I get them to 1012 00:35:46,240 --> 00:35:50,960 understand that it exists and and that's 1013 00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,119 it, right? It's it's purely data 1014 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,960 transfer. The only reason all the 1015 00:35:53,119 --> 00:35:57,119 interpersonal stuff and all the sales 1016 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,720 skills and all the like manipulative 1017 00:35:57,119 --> 00:36:00,960 stuff come into play is that the data 1018 00:35:58,720 --> 00:36:03,520 transfer mechanism is so lossy. It's 1019 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,720 just a very inefficient and the buyers 1020 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,000 just don't even know what the hell 1021 00:36:04,720 --> 00:36:07,520 they're buying half the time. and 1022 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,599 they're getting into these multi-year 1023 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,800 contracts and they're they're like in a 1024 00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:12,720 lot of ways they're they're going, 1025 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,800 "Okay, well, I know this guy, you know, 1026 00:36:12,720 --> 00:36:16,640 this head of sales guy. I've seen his 1027 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,400 career. Maybe I knew him 15 years ago. 1028 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,920 He didn't screw me back then. So, I'll 1029 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:22,000 go ahead and sign this contract now. 1030 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,440 It's a multi-year contract, and I'm 1031 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,440 putting a lot of weight in the 1032 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:27,359 reputation of the sales guy representing 1033 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:30,640 this company." It's it's very very 1034 00:36:27,359 --> 00:36:32,079 sloppy a way to do business, and it's 1035 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,680 the only way that you can really do 1036 00:36:32,079 --> 00:36:36,079 business when you're completely data 1037 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,520 starved, right? And that's why when I 1038 00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:39,839 was talking about AI earlier with 1039 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:43,440 helping with finances, it's like we can 1040 00:36:39,839 --> 00:36:45,200 just make a a decision with 10,000 times 1041 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,760 more data than we could have 50 years 1042 00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,200 ago. We probably do that already, but AI 1043 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,680 is going to take it another couple 1044 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:53,760 orders of magnitude. Uh, and where does 1045 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,760 a where does a guy that's like focused 1046 00:36:53,760 --> 00:36:57,680 on sales his whole life fit in there? 1047 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,680 Man, if there's one job that just 1048 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:02,079 doesn't bode well, right? It's like 1049 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,599 being a manual data transfer agent in a 1050 00:37:02,079 --> 00:37:05,119 world where the data is transferring 1051 00:37:03,599 --> 00:37:07,520 faster and more efficiently when you're 1052 00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:09,520 not in the room. So yeah, I I I would 1053 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,720 say if you're in sales or marketing, you 1054 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,119 know, it might be a good time to learn 1055 00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:15,280 to code. 1056 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:16,960 >> Oh yeah. I mean, everybody's got to 1057 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,800 learn to code these days. And it's it's 1058 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,200 quite easy if you know if you know where 1059 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,480 to point the direction, right? Like 1060 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:24,560 that's the thing. I just don't think 1061 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:26,640 people know how to build. I think like 1062 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,720 coding is the easy part. It's it's what 1063 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:31,119 to build. like what do you want to build 1064 00:37:28,720 --> 00:37:32,880 and how to architect it, what to put in 1065 00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:33,760 >> your software and what to leave out, 1066 00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,280 right? So, 1067 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:36,560 >> yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, what 1068 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,480 you're doing with the podcast is 1069 00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:40,480 interesting, right? You found a way to 1070 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,839 connect with people and and I I think 1071 00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,760 podcasting is a great kind of way to 1072 00:37:43,839 --> 00:37:49,200 sell right now because it is a good 1073 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:51,440 intermediary thing. Like obviously 1074 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,280 flying to a conference is probably not 1075 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,960 going to be there in like 15, 20 years. 1076 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,480 Like it probably doesn't compute, but it 1077 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,079 takes time for these things to change. I 1078 00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:59,920 don't I don't think, you know, if you're 1079 00:37:58,079 --> 00:38:01,760 if you're a a super successful 1080 00:37:59,920 --> 00:38:04,160 enterprise sales guy, I'm not saying you 1081 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:05,920 should quit your $10 million a year job 1082 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,079 and go learn to code right now, right? 1083 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,079 Like you can you can ride the wave out, 1084 00:38:08,079 --> 00:38:11,920 but you probably don't want to train 1085 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:14,079 your grandchildren, right, if you're if 1086 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,079 you're uh at that age to go into 1087 00:38:14,079 --> 00:38:17,359 enterprise sales right now cuz it's, you 1088 00:38:16,079 --> 00:38:18,880 know, it's probably not going to be 1089 00:38:17,359 --> 00:38:20,480 there for them. But yeah, I think I 1090 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,320 think stuff like podcasting, connecting 1091 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,320 with people online in the way that we're 1092 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,599 doing right now is kind of on that 1093 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:30,400 continuum. um and and and has more legs, 1094 00:38:27,599 --> 00:38:32,160 longer legs than something like uh um 1095 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,079 you know, trying to just knock on doors 1096 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,599 or whatever. But ultimately, part of the 1097 00:38:34,079 --> 00:38:38,240 reason that this is cool is that it does 1098 00:38:35,599 --> 00:38:39,920 get fed into the LLMs, right? Like 1099 00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:42,960 everybody's going to go to the LLM first 1100 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:45,040 and say, "Hey, should I who's Softron, 1101 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,119 right?" And to the degree that these 1102 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:48,800 podcasts get fed in there, like that's 1103 00:38:47,119 --> 00:38:51,040 that is good sales and marketing, I 1104 00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:54,880 would say. But you got to know that the 1105 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:57,119 main face is going to be LLM. 1106 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:59,760 >> That that's a good thing. But I will I 1107 00:38:57,119 --> 00:39:01,440 will say that the one thing that people 1108 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:03,200 do want to see is like they put a face 1109 00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:05,200 to the name, too. Like they they will 1110 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,280 have the data in the LLMs, but they'll 1111 00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,359 also say, "Hey, that's Jack Couch is a 1112 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,760 real person, and there he was with Johan 1113 00:39:09,359 --> 00:39:15,040 on a podcast, right?" Like, so I think 1114 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:17,280 like you're right. And and uh I advised 1115 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:19,680 a CEO that I worked with one time. I'm 1116 00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:22,000 like I said to him the amount of money 1117 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,079 and time that you spent going on 1118 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,760 conferences is that's the time that you 1119 00:39:24,079 --> 00:39:27,839 could be building. It's it's terribly 1120 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:29,920 disruptive for you to be leaving 1121 00:39:27,839 --> 00:39:32,000 building product to be going to these 1122 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:34,079 things and there's you have a week 1123 00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,839 before you have a week after maybe even 1124 00:39:34,079 --> 00:39:37,760 two weeks before to prep and two weeks 1125 00:39:35,839 --> 00:39:38,560 after to to 1126 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,440 >> to 1127 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,960 >> but in in a really data uh if the buyers 1128 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,119 don't have access to a lot of data 1129 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,560 though it makes sense for him to do that 1130 00:39:45,119 --> 00:39:48,800 like he probably did the math. He 1131 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,400 probably wasn't terribly off on whether 1132 00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:52,560 it was effective or not. He knew if he 1133 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,599 got a few more sales when he went to a 1134 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:55,280 conference that he wouldn't have got 1135 00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:58,400 otherwise probably. But the difference 1136 00:39:55,280 --> 00:40:00,960 is that the data is getting richer. Like 1137 00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,800 if if somebody said, "I I'm building a 1138 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,480 financial app and I want to get access 1139 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:06,320 to banking data or I'm building an AI 1140 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:07,760 agent, right? I'm building a an AI 1141 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,520 agent. One of the things I want it to be 1142 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,119 able to do is connect to banks. Well, I 1143 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:14,320 can look at Softrun or I can look at 1144 00:40:11,119 --> 00:40:16,160 Plaid or or Yodi or, you know, Finicity, 1145 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,599 Mastercard, whatever." Right? I think 1146 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,320 this conversation could be helpful 1147 00:40:17,599 --> 00:40:22,160 because it goes into the LLM and the LLM 1148 00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,400 says, "Hey, you know, here's the seven 1149 00:40:22,160 --> 00:40:25,599 that I know about and maybe Softron, you 1150 00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,839 know, maybe it would have been a list of 1151 00:40:25,599 --> 00:40:30,079 six if I wasn't on on a few podcasts, 1152 00:40:27,839 --> 00:40:31,760 right? Uh because they're not as top of 1153 00:40:30,079 --> 00:40:33,440 mind." But then the next question is 1154 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,839 like, okay, how how should I make this 1155 00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,359 buying decision? And the answer is going 1156 00:40:35,839 --> 00:40:38,960 to be something like, well, you're 1157 00:40:37,359 --> 00:40:40,560 trying to connect to banks. How many 1158 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,160 bank here? Here here's the banks that 1159 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,599 they can connect to. Here's the 1160 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,440 reliability numbers that have been 1161 00:40:43,599 --> 00:40:48,000 published, if any have been published. 1162 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,920 Here's any security breaches that any of 1163 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:52,000 these companies have suffered. Here's 1164 00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:55,359 how long they've been in business. Like 1165 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:59,119 the LM is going to be an unbiased uh 1166 00:40:55,359 --> 00:41:02,400 source of those key driving decision-m 1167 00:40:59,119 --> 00:41:03,920 sort of metrics, right? And so probably 1168 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,760 it's not going to be very long before 1169 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,680 nobody cares, right? Nobody cares that 1170 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:09,359 Jack Couch has, you know, worked at 1171 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,960 Microsoft or whatever. It's like, can 1172 00:41:09,359 --> 00:41:13,119 you connect me to Boeing Employees 1173 00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:15,200 Credit Union and Wells Fargo? Have you 1174 00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:17,440 ever had a security issue and what's 1175 00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,960 your cost and uh you know, does it 1176 00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,560 freaking work, right? I I don't want to 1177 00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,480 have a conversation. I'm probably vibe 1178 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:24,720 coding this thing up anyway, right? Like 1179 00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,640 like I'm probably having an agent decide 1180 00:41:24,720 --> 00:41:28,079 what API I'm going to use to connect the 1181 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:29,920 bank account. So, I'm probably, you 1182 00:41:28,079 --> 00:41:31,920 know, like even the buyer is probably 1183 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:34,000 getting taken out of the loop more than 1184 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:36,720 than we expect right now. But yeah, the 1185 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,480 idea that like as a technology service 1186 00:41:36,720 --> 00:41:40,000 provider, people are really going to 1187 00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:42,160 care whether I have a, you know, a 1188 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,839 charming personality or not, like yeah, 1189 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:46,480 that's totally was the case 20 years 1190 00:41:43,839 --> 00:41:48,000 ago. It's a little bit the case now, but 1191 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,200 I think we can see that it's not going 1192 00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:55,040 to be the case for much longer. 1193 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:56,960 This is cool. So, what is your your 1194 00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:59,520 future 1195 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,520 like estimate of how we interact with 1196 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,119 the LLMs? Is it just going to be a 1197 00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:06,400 device on our phone that we just speak 1198 00:42:03,119 --> 00:42:08,800 into? Is that is that the best UX? 1199 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,079 >> I I mean I think probably it's it is 1200 00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,000 probably you just talking to your phone. 1201 00:42:10,079 --> 00:42:13,680 I don't know if it's a separate device. 1202 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,920 Like this this whole separate device 1203 00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:19,440 thing has been so weird to watch too. 1204 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:22,319 When when I was at Microsoft and we had 1205 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,920 this pocket CE, I think is what it was. 1206 00:42:22,319 --> 00:42:25,359 And you know, you had your phone and you 1207 00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,359 could slide like a keyboard out and you 1208 00:42:25,359 --> 00:42:29,359 had a stylus. And then then I worked at 1209 00:42:27,359 --> 00:42:31,280 Xbox. Then I worked at Zoom. And Zoom 1210 00:42:29,359 --> 00:42:34,720 was like, "Okay, we're going to 1211 00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:36,800 consolidate the MP3 player and watching 1212 00:42:34,720 --> 00:42:38,480 video was like the whole the whole idea 1213 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,480 behind Zoom." And it was super cool. 1214 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:43,040 Like we had for for what it was, we had 1215 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,880 this great UX, great designers, great 1216 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:47,839 artists and everything. Like it was it 1217 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,079 was fun. I still have like zooms laying 1218 00:42:47,839 --> 00:42:52,079 around. But then the day the iPhone came 1219 00:42:50,079 --> 00:42:54,000 out, we all stood around and we said, 1220 00:42:52,079 --> 00:42:56,144 "Okay, where are we applying next?" 1221 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,760 Right? We all knew it was over because 1222 00:42:56,144 --> 00:43:00,160 [laughter] as soon as you picked up the 1223 00:42:57,760 --> 00:43:02,000 iPhone, you were like, "Oh my gosh, this 1224 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:03,760 touchscreen is amazing." Like they 1225 00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,319 finally got touchcreens to work. There's 1226 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:09,200 no stylus. The reason that Zoom didn't 1227 00:43:06,319 --> 00:43:10,880 have a uh like a touchcreen is we didn't 1228 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,960 have the technology to make it work. It 1229 00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:15,040 was it was a shitty user experience. 1230 00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,880 Even with a stylus, you'd like stab the 1231 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:18,400 thing sometimes, you know? It just it it 1232 00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,960 wasn't good enough. And so we kind of 1233 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:23,280 did like this custom thing where you'd 1234 00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,599 roll your thumb around. But as soon as 1235 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:27,280 we saw that good touch screen, we were 1236 00:43:25,599 --> 00:43:29,200 like, "All right, it's game over." And 1237 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:30,880 also, it's got to be the phone. So, some 1238 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,800 of us moved over to Windows Phone and 1239 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,480 worked on that, but it was just so clear 1240 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,880 that like, yeah, nobody's going to carry 1241 00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,960 around an MP3 player when they can carry 1242 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:40,640 around an iPhone and it has an MP3 1243 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:42,880 player and it's got a browser and it's 1244 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:45,839 also a cell phone, right? So, this kind 1245 00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:48,720 of like weird going back to individual 1246 00:43:45,839 --> 00:43:52,079 devices, I just think it's like it's in 1247 00:43:48,720 --> 00:43:53,599 in nonsense, right? Like why I I carry 1248 00:43:52,079 --> 00:43:55,359 these two things around like everybody 1249 00:43:53,599 --> 00:43:57,440 right now, right? And I'm kind of 1250 00:43:55,359 --> 00:44:00,000 annoyed that this isn't somehow inside 1251 00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:03,280 this already, right? Like like you want 1252 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,720 your AirPods to be somehow smaller so 1253 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,400 that they can like fit in the back of 1254 00:44:04,720 --> 00:44:07,680 your phone case or something. And I'm 1255 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,280 sure I'm sure somebody's working on 1256 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,560 that. It's probably already uh it's 1257 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:10,880 probably already on the road map at 1258 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:12,400 Apple. 1259 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,079 >> Yeah. It's called a brain computer 1260 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:16,079 interface that 1261 00:44:14,079 --> 00:44:18,240 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I mean 1262 00:44:16,079 --> 00:44:20,800 that's way more that's way more the 1263 00:44:18,240 --> 00:44:22,880 trend, right? The trend is not towards 1264 00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:25,440 inconvenience. The trend is towards 1265 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:27,520 convenience. So yeah, I I agree. More 1266 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,440 likely my cell phone goes in my skull 1267 00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,000 than that I carry another few devices 1268 00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:31,440 around. 1269 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,920 >> Would you do it? Would you do it? Would 1270 00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:37,119 you be one of the first ones or 1271 00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:40,400 >> No, I'm a security guy, so I like trust 1272 00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:42,480 boundaries and my brain uh I I like that 1273 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,920 it's isolated from my phone to the 1274 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,359 degree that it is. I mean, there's been 1275 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,119 there's been enough experiments already 1276 00:44:45,359 --> 00:44:48,400 trying to push that limit, but no, I I 1277 00:44:47,119 --> 00:44:51,520 don't want to I'm not going to be the 1278 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,839 first guy to get his brain hacked. 1279 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,440 >> Okay, 1280 00:44:51,839 --> 00:44:54,800 >> I'd have to have a lot more trust in the 1281 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:57,520 hardware that I have and stuff right 1282 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,200 now. 1283 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:01,599 >> All right, but you know, we're wrapping 1284 00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,280 up here. Super amazing conversation. 1285 00:45:01,599 --> 00:45:05,520 What's the future of Softron? Like, 1286 00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,280 where do you see guys yourselves in a 1287 00:45:05,520 --> 00:45:10,079 couple years? And how can we keep up 1288 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,920 with what you guys are doing? 1289 00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:13,599 Yeah, I mean I I think probably what's 1290 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,040 going to happen with Softron is we end 1291 00:45:13,599 --> 00:45:17,119 up getting acquired by one of the 1292 00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:18,800 frontier models. That seems like the 1293 00:45:17,119 --> 00:45:20,240 most likely thing because they're 1294 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:21,599 they're running up against this data 1295 00:45:20,240 --> 00:45:23,200 wall that they're starting to talk about 1296 00:45:21,599 --> 00:45:25,119 more and more now. Like they've got 1297 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,400 access to all of the public data they've 1298 00:45:25,119 --> 00:45:28,240 trained and they've added the 1299 00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:30,560 functionality that they can add, but 1300 00:45:28,240 --> 00:45:31,920 they they need access to everything that 1301 00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:34,319 they can get. That's going to be a major 1302 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,400 differentiator. And we've spent a decade 1303 00:45:34,319 --> 00:45:39,280 getting really, really good at accessing 1304 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:41,599 data, um, ethically and with consumer 1305 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,040 consent, um, informed consent, all of 1306 00:45:41,599 --> 00:45:45,040 that, but getting access to data that 1307 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:47,200 nobody can get access to. So, I think 1308 00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,720 that's probably where we end up. Um, 1309 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,920 and, uh, yeah, I'm looking forward to 1310 00:45:48,720 --> 00:45:51,680 it. It's going to be a it's going to be 1311 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,000 a fun ride. Uh, the stuff that's 1312 00:45:51,680 --> 00:45:56,079 happening is it's of course overhyped, 1313 00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,160 but all these things have been overhyped 1314 00:45:56,079 --> 00:46:00,560 and then still absolutely incredible in 1315 00:45:58,160 --> 00:46:03,560 hindsight. 1316 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,560 Amazing. 1317 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:08,079 Thanks, Jack. One thing I was say a 1318 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,960 little curious about what you said. You 1319 00:46:08,079 --> 00:46:12,720 said you were on the Xbox team. 1320 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,960 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I uh I 1321 00:46:12,720 --> 00:46:17,280 personally set up the Xbox network in 1322 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:19,119 Japan. Did did like built out the whole 1323 00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,599 the whole uh network configuration and 1324 00:46:19,119 --> 00:46:22,720 all that sort of stuff. So, Xbox Live in 1325 00:46:21,599 --> 00:46:25,359 particular. 1326 00:46:22,720 --> 00:46:27,599 >> So, meaning like multi 1327 00:46:25,359 --> 00:46:29,200 multiplayer run ran on something you 1328 00:46:27,599 --> 00:46:31,200 built. 1329 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,960 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Xbox Live was huge 1330 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,040 when it first came out. I mean, it was 1331 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,319 it was Halo, you know, Halo kicked off 1332 00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,880 and you could play Halo with your 1333 00:46:36,319 --> 00:46:40,640 friends all the way across the country, 1334 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,240 all the way across the world, right? And 1335 00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:44,000 uh yeah, that was one of the funnest 1336 00:46:42,240 --> 00:46:45,599 times of my career. Like, everybody was 1337 00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:48,240 playing Halo all the time when we 1338 00:46:45,599 --> 00:46:50,240 weren't working. And you know, actually, 1339 00:46:48,240 --> 00:46:51,680 you know, that that was magical. And 1340 00:46:50,240 --> 00:46:53,359 part of the reason it was magical is we 1341 00:46:51,680 --> 00:46:54,880 were all in person. I got to I got to 1342 00:46:53,359 --> 00:46:56,960 admit, it was very cool to be able to 1343 00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,240 walk down the hall and uh just see all 1344 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,839 your friends that you were working and 1345 00:46:58,240 --> 00:47:01,920 playing with. your connection or our 1346 00:46:59,839 --> 00:47:03,599 connection went south there. But I I 1347 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:06,880 wanted to show you this. I I found this 1348 00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:08,160 in a in a toy show. 1349 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,000 It was 1350 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:12,319 >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The 1351 00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:15,200 >> laser cell fun. 1352 00:47:12,319 --> 00:47:15,680 >> A laser cell. One of 500. 1353 00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,119 >> Yeah. 1354 00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:19,599 >> Nice. 1355 00:47:17,119 --> 00:47:21,760 >> Let's give it to the employees. 1356 00:47:19,599 --> 00:47:24,800 >> Yeah. I I actually don't have that and I 1357 00:47:21,760 --> 00:47:27,599 don't remember it. Um 1358 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:30,400 but it looks cool and it probably was. I 1359 00:47:27,599 --> 00:47:31,680 uh I somehow I always missed out. Uh I 1360 00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,240 think it was because I was always 1361 00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:36,400 working like in the party. Um when we 1362 00:47:34,240 --> 00:47:38,880 shipped Windows Vista, every year that 1363 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:41,599 when we shipped a new uh copy of 1364 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:43,680 Windows, there'd be this huge uh cover 1365 00:47:41,599 --> 00:47:45,119 on Wall Street Journal and a picture of 1366 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:47,440 that war room that I was talking about 1367 00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:49,839 and everybody was there. And uh I missed 1368 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:51,280 that day, too. Even though I spent, you 1369 00:47:49,839 --> 00:47:54,480 know, I was the security guy in that 1370 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:56,640 room for two years. And then I don't 1371 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,400 know, some emergency came up and I 1372 00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,839 wasn't I wasn't uh hanging out at the 1373 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:02,240 party and then they came in and got the 1374 00:47:59,839 --> 00:48:04,240 shot. So, I'm not surprised that I uh 1375 00:48:02,240 --> 00:48:08,000 don't I don't still have that. 1376 00:48:04,240 --> 00:48:10,480 >> Prior to us having kids, we used to play 1377 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:11,839 Halo multiplayer all the time, my wife 1378 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:13,920 and I, and 1379 00:48:11,839 --> 00:48:15,359 >> we love it. I mean, it's uh it's 1380 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,359 probably one of the best video games. I 1381 00:48:15,359 --> 00:48:19,680 hope they I hope they move and do 1382 00:48:17,359 --> 00:48:21,520 something with it more. But uh 1383 00:48:19,680 --> 00:48:23,359 >> yeah, it's a staple. It's a it's an 1384 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:26,240 amazing game. 1385 00:48:23,359 --> 00:48:27,920 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's very fun. I'm not 1386 00:48:26,240 --> 00:48:29,359 uh I'm not doing a lot of gaming anymore 1387 00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:31,359 these days, but uh yeah. 1388 00:48:29,359 --> 00:48:33,359 >> Yeah. I'm hoping that that some some 1389 00:48:31,359 --> 00:48:35,839 more fun games come out. It does it does 1390 00:48:33,359 --> 00:48:37,440 seem like that stalled a bit. VR is 1391 00:48:35,839 --> 00:48:39,040 actually going to be amazing. 1392 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:41,040 >> I was I was talking to a friend the 1393 00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:43,200 other day that has been working on a 1394 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,640 physics engine for VR and trying to 1395 00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,559 figure out how to get it to the point 1396 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,240 where we could do sword fighting. And if 1397 00:48:46,559 --> 00:48:51,040 you think about the latency there, it's 1398 00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:53,040 just insane. like you gotta for for you 1399 00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,440 to hit somebody else's sword like the 1400 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:57,520 speeds or and he said for the first time 1401 00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,839 this was just a couple weeks ago he was 1402 00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,520 like I got it and he was able to 1403 00:48:59,839 --> 00:49:04,240 actually sword fight with somebody else 1404 00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,800 and they did all kinds of weird things 1405 00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:09,040 to make it work and your brain actually 1406 00:49:06,800 --> 00:49:11,440 has to be okay with like you actually it 1407 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:13,839 introduces more latency for when you 1408 00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:16,160 move your hand but your brain starts 1409 00:49:13,839 --> 00:49:18,480 adjusting this is very weird like your 1410 00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,800 brain's brain stops expecting your hand 1411 00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,800 to move as fast. And so they buy 1412 00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:24,640 themselves a little bit of latency by 1413 00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:27,440 doing that. By basically slowing your 1414 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:30,160 brain down on both sides, they're able 1415 00:49:27,440 --> 00:49:31,839 to use that time gap that they create by 1416 00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,040 putting a local lag that doesn't need to 1417 00:49:31,839 --> 00:49:34,800 be there. But yeah, at the end of the 1418 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:38,079 day, they were they're uh they're able 1419 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:40,400 to have a really cool like actual sword 1420 00:49:38,079 --> 00:49:42,319 fighting experience in VR. So that hype 1421 00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,680 cycle's gone now, but it's going to come 1422 00:49:42,319 --> 00:49:44,800 back and the technology is still 1423 00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,559 progressing and it's going to be 1424 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:48,160 awesome. 1425 00:49:46,559 --> 00:49:49,680 >> Yeah, I know. I've I've gotten into 1426 00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:53,040 collecting games. I don't get time to 1427 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,160 play it myself, but uh collecting games, 1428 00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,559 I don't know. It's just like one of 1429 00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:58,559 those things. I was into NFTTS, so it uh 1430 00:49:56,559 --> 00:49:59,119 it was a natural thing. [laughter] 1431 00:49:58,559 --> 00:50:01,119 >> Um 1432 00:49:59,119 --> 00:50:03,599 >> are you are you still in NFTs or has 1433 00:50:01,119 --> 00:50:06,000 that hype cycle completely? Uh 1434 00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:08,160 >> it's uh that hype cycle is completed for 1435 00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:10,240 now. I I think there's there's more 1436 00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,920 there's more you can do with NFTs. Like 1437 00:50:10,240 --> 00:50:13,680 there's Funkos that that that were 1438 00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:15,200 redeemable if you owned the NFT. I 1439 00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,200 thought that was cool, 1440 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,800 >> right? Yeah. like rewards points sort 1441 00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:21,599 of. 1442 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:24,079 >> Yeah. And I think there's it's just data 1443 00:50:21,599 --> 00:50:26,240 that's onchain. Uh it's just data that's 1444 00:50:24,079 --> 00:50:28,400 that's metadata that's onchain and 1445 00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:30,079 trackable. So I I don't from a 1446 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,599 technology and productwise. It it 1447 00:50:30,079 --> 00:50:32,720 probably was just delivered the wrong 1448 00:50:31,599 --> 00:50:34,480 way with 1449 00:50:32,720 --> 00:50:35,920 >> you know board ape and monkeys and all 1450 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:39,200 these different things. So 1451 00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:41,040 >> what a crazy what a crazy series of hype 1452 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,599 cycles we've lived through in the last 1453 00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:46,160 10 years. Like when Xbox Live launched 1454 00:50:43,599 --> 00:50:47,920 it was really cool. It was a big deal 1455 00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:49,599 and the amount of hype that it got. Even 1456 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,520 though we had like we had millions of 1457 00:50:49,599 --> 00:50:54,480 users, people were spending tons of time 1458 00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:56,880 on it. It was like, you know, it was the 1459 00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,400 first online gaming experience for I 1460 00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,559 would say most people that bought an 1461 00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,160 Xbox. They hadn't really done a lot of 1462 00:51:00,559 --> 00:51:03,680 online gaming. You know, there was like 1463 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,359 World of Warcraft, but that was like 1464 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:07,440 weird teenagers only, you know, that 1465 00:51:05,359 --> 00:51:09,119 that played that. And yeah, there was 1466 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,680 there was some of that, but not 1467 00:51:09,119 --> 00:51:13,839 >> not a ton. And and man, if you compare 1468 00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:16,000 like the social impact of that and how 1469 00:51:13,839 --> 00:51:18,319 how actually cool it was to the amount 1470 00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:20,240 of overall hype to something like the 1471 00:51:18,319 --> 00:51:22,079 NFT thing, like the amount of joy that 1472 00:51:20,240 --> 00:51:23,839 the NFTs actually brought to people 1473 00:51:22,079 --> 00:51:26,079 compared to the hype, like we have 1474 00:51:23,839 --> 00:51:27,440 entered into just a really really weird 1475 00:51:26,079 --> 00:51:29,599 world where it's really hard to tell 1476 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,280 what the heck's going on anymore. 1477 00:51:29,599 --> 00:51:33,920 >> But yeah, I think you know, like even 1478 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:36,160 even VR, like VR has kind of sucked. 1479 00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,119 Like my kids play VR, I've played it a 1480 00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,200 little bit. There's some cool 1481 00:51:37,119 --> 00:51:42,000 experiences that you can have in VR, but 1482 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:44,480 for Facebook to be renamed Meta and all 1483 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:46,480 of the metaverse hype, that whole hype 1484 00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,480 cycle was just insufferable. Like, it's 1485 00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:50,000 so I'm so glad that one's over. But it 1486 00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,000 is a weird time where it's like 1487 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:54,800 everything that I want to be excited 1488 00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:57,359 about, I almost don't like it because 1489 00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:59,680 they're ruining it for me. Like they're 1490 00:51:57,359 --> 00:52:02,240 so hyping things to the point where it's 1491 00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:03,680 like I'm kind of disgusted. Like AI is a 1492 00:52:02,240 --> 00:52:05,599 perfect example. I'm totally excited 1493 00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:07,119 about the actual experiences, but when I 1494 00:52:05,599 --> 00:52:09,040 say it, I think of like, 1495 00:52:07,119 --> 00:52:11,040 >> oh my gosh, you know, everybody's going 1496 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:13,040 to be unemployed in like two weeks and 1497 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:13,839 all of this sort of stuff. It's like, oh 1498 00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,160 man. 1499 00:52:13,839 --> 00:52:17,280 >> So, I I try to I I'm trying more and 1500 00:52:16,160 --> 00:52:19,359 more to like 1501 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:21,440 >> block out the hype and, you know, focus 1502 00:52:19,359 --> 00:52:23,280 on the reality. And the reality is very 1503 00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,359 cool with a lot of the stuff. 1504 00:52:23,280 --> 00:52:28,400 >> Speaking of hype, are you any kids into 1505 00:52:25,359 --> 00:52:30,880 Pokemon and Magic or anything like that? 1506 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:33,520 >> No, no, no, no, no. The older ones are 1507 00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,559 are a little too nerdy, I think. 1508 00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,480 >> Okay. 1509 00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:39,119 >> They like they like like first person 1510 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:43,760 shooters in VR. They they do that a bit 1511 00:52:39,119 --> 00:52:45,040 and uh um and like racing go-karts and 1512 00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:47,200 things like that. 1513 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:49,200 >> But yeah, 1514 00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:51,040 before you go, I just wanted to say I 1515 00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,359 didn't know that you worked on the 1516 00:52:51,040 --> 00:52:55,599 Microsoft network, but we got so much 1517 00:52:53,359 --> 00:52:57,280 enjoyment out of that and it was it's 1518 00:52:55,599 --> 00:52:59,440 literally the gold standard of online 1519 00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,839 multiplayer. I It still probably is. I 1520 00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:03,680 don't know. I don't play. But if I were 1521 00:53:01,839 --> 00:53:06,079 wanting to choose one, it would be like, 1522 00:53:03,680 --> 00:53:08,400 "Yeah, it's Xbox Live. It's worth it. I 1523 00:53:06,079 --> 00:53:10,319 could have a phone conversation with my, 1524 00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,760 >> you know, it's it was that good." You 1525 00:53:10,319 --> 00:53:13,280 know, it was a good system. 1526 00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,559 >> Yeah. Yeah. It was it was cool. And it 1527 00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:15,680 was the first, like I said, it was the 1528 00:53:14,559 --> 00:53:17,599 first time a lot of people had that 1529 00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:19,520 experience. So, it was really fun 1530 00:53:17,599 --> 00:53:21,839 >> to be part of that. But, yeah, lot lots 1531 00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:23,839 of more cool stuff to come. If uh if we 1532 00:53:21,839 --> 00:53:25,760 could just see through the hype, I think 1533 00:53:23,839 --> 00:53:27,200 uh you know, how good would it be if we 1534 00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:30,319 were able to sword fight during this 1535 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:33,520 conversation? Why not? 1536 00:53:30,319 --> 00:53:35,200 Oh, that's interesting. It's It was 1537 00:53:33,520 --> 00:53:37,520 refreshing having you on. There's like a 1538 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:39,680 lot of people that talk hype and you're 1539 00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,280 just like that veteran CEO type that 1540 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,880 that that's seen it all type of thing. 1541 00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:46,480 So, I I really do appreciate your 1542 00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:48,319 Candace, you know, converation. So, 1543 00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,839 >> awesome, man. This was fun. I I really 1544 00:53:48,319 --> 00:53:51,359 appreciate you reaching out and and 1545 00:53:49,839 --> 00:53:52,240 getting this together. This is a good 1546 00:53:51,359 --> 00:53:53,680 time. 1547 00:53:52,240 --> 00:53:55,440 >> All right, man. We'll be in touch. I'll 1548 00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:58,400 I'll talk to you again soon. 1549 00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:58,400 >> Okay. See you.